Has anyone thought of a Myriad Universe novel where the assassination succeeded?
Valeris?
- Thread starter EJA
- Start date
^ Not a novel, but the Star Trek: The Last Generation comic was released with the MyU title and took off from that point in history.
I don't read comics, what was the gist of the plot?
What he said.
But that's the thing, while I agree with the "invasion" part of your assessment, I don't necessarily agree with the "debasement" part. Spock was not doing this with intent to subject her to pain or to harm her, or for his pleasure. He was not trying to dominate her as a person or make her less of a person. He was not doing it simply to demonstrate his power over her. That's where the rape analogy starts to fall apart.
If they'd had a machine that they could have used to scan her mind for the same information without any effort, would that have been rape too or merely an invasion of her privacy (that she would have effectively forfeited in that situation anyway through her actions).
That the director seemed to add the sexual subtext is noted.
That sounds illogical.
How did they explain how a doomed Klingon Empire that was supposedly on its knees after the Praxis explosion manage to destroy Starfleet and conquer Earth?
Evacuate the homeworld or use Federation tech to solve the problem
Sounds awfully hypocritical. There have been many episodes where Kirk has assaulted a fellow Starfleet officer with all his manly physical power, risking lifelong disfigurement and agony for the victim. It has all been for the good cause: with Finney, it can be argued to have saved his life, while with Tracey or Garth, it probably saved Kirk's. The adversaries survived the assaults and supposedly had good and productive lives afterwards. Where's the difference? In that Kirk's assaults were homosexual while Spock's was heterosexual? Can only a heterosexual assault be equated to a rape?
It's difficult to see any other dissimilarities there; in both cases, the adversaries were obvious villains who appeared to be on par with the assailant in terms of fighting prowess, and the fights were delightfully even in dramatic terms, with both sides crying in pain yet carrying on nevertheless - just like a good hero and villain always should.
Timo Saloniemi
It's difficult to see any other dissimilarities there; in both cases, the adversaries were obvious villains who appeared to be on par with the assailant in terms of fighting prowess, and the fights were delightfully even in dramatic terms, with both sides crying in pain yet carrying on nevertheless - just like a good hero and villain always should.
Timo Saloniemi
Roddenberry declared parts of ST V non canonical. He disliked Sybok being revealed as a son of Sarek, after decades of writers honoring DC Fontana's old memo about Spock having no siblings, and he wasn't too keen on McCoy practising euthanasia on his own father (although DeForest Kelly came to appreciate playing that scene.)
GR didn't have time to release too many comments on ST VI. He was raced to the hospital (and subsequently died a few days later) not long after viewing a work print of ST VI in a Paramount theatrette. He did release a few negative comments on casting and script, months earlier, mainly that he didn't think fans would like Saavik turning traitor, and that there was too much Klingon racism. According to his aide, Ernie Over, if I recall the anedote correctly, the weary GR's only comment on the finished film was, "I'm sure the fans will like it."
Just briefly on Sybok,the novelization explained Sybok's backstory rather well I thought.He was the son of Sareks first marriage to a vulcan princess(who was into ancient vulcan mysticism etc.)When that marriage ended Sybok lived with Sarek and his new family until his eventual exile from Vulcan and Sareks disowning of him(not unheard of Sarek behaviour).
I thought that just one line of dialogue in the movie could have explained thewhole thing(obviously a more concise line than those I've just typed.
)
I thought that just one line of dialogue in the movie could have explained thewhole thing(obviously a more concise line than those I've just typed.
)
Last edited:
Therin of Andor, do you know what's up with this tidbit on Memory Alpha's Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country page, then?
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Star_Trek_VI:_The_Undiscovered_Country
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Star_Trek_VI:_The_Undiscovered_Country
My version of the story came from Ernie Over, who was with Roddenberry at the time, as his full-time carer. Someone has editorialized Roddenberry's supposed actions in an interview for Shatner's book. Ernie told me personally, in December 1991, that GR was in absolutely no condition to be racing back to phone anyone. He was in a very bad way. In any case, Ernie was doing the pushing of the wheelchair! GR's official comments on ST VI ended with the shooting script, AFAIK.
It's not the only incorrect/exaggerated anecdote in Shatner's books. That lawyer's anecdotes, if it was still Leonard Maizlish at the time, now also deceased, are often incorrect, too.
More likely, someone's misremembering exactly when GR was phoning. Those "military moments" would have been in the Saavik version of the script, the one he did make official comments about.
Yes, but only if the perpetrator is male and the victim is female. In that case, Trek writers and fans will bend over backwards to make as many rape comparisons as possible, even if it the act has no sexual connotations whatsoever. See, for instance, Youtube comments on VOY "Retrospect" - 80% of them compare what the alien was alleged to have done to Seven to rape, even though he was alleged to have taken her nanoprobes, which is a lot more akin to organ harvesting. I don't remember anyone saying that Neelix was raped when the Vidiians stole his lungs... The same thing goes for forced mind melds: see ENT "Fusion" (in which it was actually written as a rape metaphor, according to its writers) and comments in this thread about Spock/Valeris in TUC. But when the victim is male (whether the melder is male or female), lo and behold, nobody makes any rape analogies... You don't hear people saying that Mirror T'Pol raped Mirror Trip, or that Sakonna (DS9 "The Maquis") tried to rape Dukat, or that Mirror Spock raped McCoy, or that Tuvok crossed the line from consensual meld to rape when he was melding with that alien from "Random Thoughts"... And let's not forget all those people and... entities that Spock "raped" (from unconscious Romulans, to whales, to computers...)... (See my previous comments on this in this thread, as well as here.)
Basically, whenever there is a violent act committed by a male over a female, you can bet that someone is soon going to be comparing it to a rape, but the same act with any other combination of genders is not going to be. It's a stereotype that I find very annoying at times. Yes, sexual violence against women is a very widespread problem in real life and it should be dealt with in fiction... but it gets very tedious and irritating when it turns into a trend of sexual victimization of female characters. (Deanna Troi on TNG is a textbook example, and ENT had the tendency to do that with T'Pol.) I tend to notice that in many other shows and movies - when they have to come up with a 'traumatic past' background for a female character, you can bet 10:1 that it will involve a rape or childhood sexual abuse, as if it's impossible to think of anything else that might have traumatized a woman. Heck (going back to Trek), even Tasha Yar was avoiding "rape gangs" in her youth... Though this was, thankfully, avoided with Ro and Kira (though, from what I've seen, some fanfic writers weren't satisfied with that), and I'd almost say with Seven, but then Brannon Braga had to compare the ex-Borg to a rape victim (while describing her as hopelessly damaged, no less...)
Hmmmm. All this brought a question to me ... are sentences adjusted for the life span of each species? For example, "life" for a Vulcan would be double or triple the time of a human. While lifespan varies a little within each species, it's quite different for two distinct species.
If Kirk and Spock were found guilty of premeditated murder, is it "just" that Spock spend a second or third "human life" in prison for the same crime? Does Kirk get off easier simply because he doesn't live as long?
--Ted
If Kirk and Spock were found guilty of premeditated murder, is it "just" that Spock spend a second or third "human life" in prison for the same crime? Does Kirk get off easier simply because he doesn't live as long?
--Ted
I really doubt Federation penology is so primitive as just to throw someone in a cage for the rest of their lives. Surely they have legitimate rehabilitation methods by then, instead of wallowing in penological barbarism like our society does.
kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
Richard Bashier was sentenced to two years in the New Zealand penal colony. A penalty stated as simply a length of time as opposed to "treatment for criminal acts" for instance. It sounds, at least in this case, the penalty is much like we have now. I suppose that his time there would include counseling but I wonder what would happen if he refused to attend.
Sorry, I can't agree. Your firends never hold diverging opinions from yours? Your child never rebels against your rules and takes a contrary position? (one of the biggest pitfalls I've seen in parenting is the blinders - "Oh my child would never..." even as said child is doing exactly that). Besides, given Saavik's history, the Valeris role makes excellent sense for her. And that would have made a far stronger story, as well as making Spock's outrage make more sense to the viewer.
