Valeris?
- Thread starter EJA
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Also Valeris, a Vulcan, was whimpering. Either in pain or psychological distress. How bad does it have to get to make a Vulcan whimper like child.
As to it not being like rape, don't be absurd. The difference between consensual sex and rape is just that, consent. Without consent an otherwise enjoyable activity becomes a psychologically scarring event. Having someone rip into your mind, no matter how finely targetted (and while were on that subject, Spock always described mind melds as incredibly personal mergings of minds; a total sharing of memory and thought) is bound to be intensly traumatic.
So what we have here is Spock mind raping another person on the bridge to torture information out of them. I always thought that was just a little out of character.
As to it not being like rape, don't be absurd. The difference between consensual sex and rape is just that, consent. Without consent an otherwise enjoyable activity becomes a psychologically scarring event. Having someone rip into your mind, no matter how finely targetted (and while were on that subject, Spock always described mind melds as incredibly personal mergings of minds; a total sharing of memory and thought) is bound to be intensly traumatic.
So what we have here is Spock mind raping another person on the bridge to torture information out of them. I always thought that was just a little out of character.
Many years ago, I recall reading an entry for Star Trek VI in one of those Star Trek episode/movie companions -- I want to say that Larry Nemeck wrote it -- in which Kim Catrall, the actress who played Valeris, described the mind meld scene as "hot" and "the closest thing to sex you'll ever have in Star Trek."
I'm not exactly sure what that says about Kim Catrall, but it is an interesting piece of information. Can anyone verify my memory?
Please list them.
I recall that anecdote. I think it possibly implies that Spock and Valeris - in Cattrall's take upon it - may have already had some kind of mental (and physical fling), going way beyond normal teacher/student protocols. That's why it was possible for Spock (and only Spock) to break down her mental barriers that would normally prevent one Vulcan from intruding on the mind of another Vulcan against their will.
Also remember, that this character was Saavik in its shooting draft - and she and young Spock survived pon farr together in ST III.
And it would've been fine if it had been directed that way. The novelization reworked it so that it was more consensual. But the way it was presented onscreen, it looked like it was forced.
Truth serum, for one, as mentioned way back in TOS "The Man Trap."
One would think that full Vulcans might be immune. A half Vulcan can survive madness from seeing a Medusan, the touch of a Salt Vampire, the light needed to kill flying parasites, the trill of a tribble, and even death by radiation!
Klingon mind-sifters also.
They're sort of the same concept, yes (and the Breen have a version too)
. I imagine the specifics differ, though. The Romulans probably based theirs on the technology that produced Karatek's coronet or other katric technologies ("Exodus" established the te-Vikram intended it for unpleasant purposes), while the Klingons based theirs on Zalkat technology, as suggested in "The Brave and the Bold". The Klingon version seems a little more dangerous, perhaps because Klingons tend to be less subtle and less paitent...Romulans probe, while the Klingon version is also called a mind-ripper, which sounds...particularly painful...
The Star Trek franchise has been amazingly inconsistent in its treatment of mind-meld. So, supposedly it is this extremely intimate act, which was once on Vulcan considered indecent even when consensual unless in marriage etc.? Spock himself described it as a deeply personal thing for Vulcans when he was about to perform one on screen for the first time (Dagger of the Mind)... yet in the following episodes and movies, Spock mind-melded with just about everyone and everything, from random humanoids, to alien life forms like Horta, to whales, and even computers. 
Furthermore, the Maquis are terrorists, sure, but they're portrayed in the episode - and in fact, in that scene - as sympathetic but somewhat naive and inept terrorists who are unable to be really ruthless because of their Federation upbringing... They're such inept terrorists that they can't even properly torture their prisoner, the scene suggests - instead they resort to such mild and safe means as the Vulcan mind-meld.
Now - under the assumption that your views of the forced mind-meld are right - I'm not saying that any of the human Maquis should be acting any differently - after all, they may not even be able to grasp what mind-meld is about and they may not think it's a big deal. Nor am I saying that Dukat should be acting any differently - maybe Cardassians don't think it's a big deal either, at least if you can resist it, which Dukat knew he could, or he is just taking the opportunity to taunt the Maquis about their alleged lack of guts and inability to get their hands dirty (i.e. basically call them sissies) and gain psychological advantage over his captors.
But Sakonna is Vulcan. If Vulcans consider a mind meld an extremely intimate act, and a forced mind meld an act of violation analogous to rape and a heinous crime - then surely she should be aware that she is already getting her hands dirty if she is using such an act as an interrogation technique? Surely she shouldn't be taking the moral high ground and acting as if a forced mind meld is a mild, peaceful and safe way to extract information, unlike cruel Cardassian torture techniques? ("He is right. We do not possess the Cardassian gift for inflicting pain. Nor would we wish for such a gift.") Unless she is being incredibly hypocritical.
(Or should I say, even more hypocritical than she already seems without taking into accounts your views on mind-meld: it's too late to invoke Federation ideals of humanness after you've blown up a ship full of people - and inflicted a lot of pain on those people's families.)
[BTW, just to make it clear, I like Sakonna. But that's because I like morally ambiguous fictional characters.])
But in the scene, there isn't even a shadow of any such subtext that you talk about, which means that either
1) Vulcan attitudes to forced mind-melds have changed drastically from the 22nd and 23rd to the 24th century?
or
2) writers of various Trek shows and movies have been totally inconsistent in their treatment of the subject. Curiously - but unsurprisingly - the rape subtext happens to pop up whenever a male is forcing a mind meld on a female (ENT "Fusion", The Undiscovered Country) but completely disappears when it's the other way round.
Either a forced mind-meld is a violation and a crime analogous to rape, or it is not. It can't be a mind rape when a male Vulcan is forcing it on a pretty female Vulcan, but not be when a pretty female Vulcan is forcing it on a big bad male Cardassian.
That wouldn't make sense, since a mind meld is a mind meld is a mind meld, whatever the gender and species of people involved. It can't be a disturbing violation and heinous crime one moment and then a mild peaceful technique the next, depending on what suits the writers at the time.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Those 'what constitutes rape' debates are always so epic... I remember the one about ENT "Unexpected" in TheGodBen's Enterprise thread. I think the Forced Mind Meld = Mind Rape? topic deserves a thread of its own, preferably in the General Trek - maybe even with a poll!
And speaking of Trek inconsistencies, in DS9 "The Maquis", Sakonna unsuccessfully tries to force a mind meld on Dukat during the failed interrogation scene, and it's notably not treated analogously to attempted rape.
Furthermore, the Maquis are terrorists, sure, but they're portrayed in the episode - and in fact, in that scene - as sympathetic but somewhat naive and inept terrorists who are unable to be really ruthless because of their Federation upbringing... They're such inept terrorists that they can't even properly torture their prisoner, the scene suggests - instead they resort to such mild and safe means as the Vulcan mind-meld.
Now - under the assumption that your views of the forced mind-meld are right - I'm not saying that any of the human Maquis should be acting any differently - after all, they may not even be able to grasp what mind-meld is about and they may not think it's a big deal. Nor am I saying that Dukat should be acting any differently - maybe Cardassians don't think it's a big deal either, at least if you can resist it, which Dukat knew he could, or he is just taking the opportunity to taunt the Maquis about their alleged lack of guts and inability to get their hands dirty (i.e. basically call them sissies) and gain psychological advantage over his captors.
But Sakonna is Vulcan. If Vulcans consider a mind meld an extremely intimate act, and a forced mind meld an act of violation analogous to rape and a heinous crime - then surely she should be aware that she is already getting her hands dirty if she is using such an act as an interrogation technique? Surely she shouldn't be taking the moral high ground and acting as if a forced mind meld is a mild, peaceful and safe way to extract information, unlike cruel Cardassian torture techniques? ("He is right. We do not possess the Cardassian gift for inflicting pain. Nor would we wish for such a gift.") Unless she is being incredibly hypocritical.
(Or should I say, even more hypocritical than she already seems without taking into accounts your views on mind-meld: it's too late to invoke Federation ideals of humanness after you've blown up a ship full of people - and inflicted a lot of pain on those people's families.)
[BTW, just to make it clear, I like Sakonna. But that's because I like morally ambiguous fictional characters.])
But in the scene, there isn't even a shadow of any such subtext that you talk about, which means that either
1) Vulcan attitudes to forced mind-melds have changed drastically from the 22nd and 23rd to the 24th century?
or
2) writers of various Trek shows and movies have been totally inconsistent in their treatment of the subject. Curiously - but unsurprisingly - the rape subtext happens to pop up whenever a male is forcing a mind meld on a female (ENT "Fusion", The Undiscovered Country) but completely disappears when it's the other way round.
Either a forced mind-meld is a violation and a crime analogous to rape, or it is not. It can't be a mind rape when a male Vulcan is forcing it on a pretty female Vulcan, but not be when a pretty female Vulcan is forcing it on a big bad male Cardassian.
That wouldn't make sense, since a mind meld is a mind meld is a mind meld, whatever the gender and species of people involved. It can't be a disturbing violation and heinous crime one moment and then a mild peaceful technique the next, depending on what suits the writers at the time. - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Those 'what constitutes rape' debates are always so epic... I remember the one about ENT "Unexpected" in TheGodBen's Enterprise thread. I think the Forced Mind Meld = Mind Rape? topic deserves a thread of its own, preferably in the General Trek - maybe even with a poll!
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Again, I think the point that's being overlooked is that we're not talking about theory; the fact is that the scene was consciously made with a sexual subtext. The intent of Nicholas Meyer in shooting the scene was to portray this forced meld as an implicitly sexual act. That's what disturbs me -- not the abstract theory, but the choice made by Meyer to sexualize this coercive scene.
But there again, the statements made by Catrall call into question just how coercive Meyer and Co. intended the scene to be.
There is no doubt that the scene was shot with a sexual subtext, given the previous close relationship and sexual tension between Spock and Valeris (there certainly seemed to be more than enough hints that their relationship was more than strictly mentor/teacher, although it's not clear if it actually went further than that or if it just could have). And the mind-meld scene was portrayed as violent and disturbing, judging by the reactions of Valeris, Spock himself, and definitely the looks on the faces of Uhura, Scotty and others present.
But it's hard to see it as a crime equal to mind-rape, when Trek has failed to portray a forced mind meld consistently as such.
And BTW, the example I gave above begs the question, if Cardassian military trained its members how to mentally resist a mind meld (before the Maquis even existed - presumably during the war between Cardassia and the Federation), was it just Cardassian paranoia, or were (at least some of) the Vulcans in the Starfleet using forced mind melds to extract information from their prisoners?
I'm quite excited that Valeris will be featuring in a new novel coming out sometime soon, set after TUC. I can't remember what it's called though, can someone please remind me?
There should have been some signs of remorse from the Enterprise crew after the forced meld, not the light-heartedness we got in the movie, that just somehow felt a little bit sadistic to me. In some ways I find it similar to the character of Harriet Jones in Doctor Who; she admired and respected the Doctor as a friend and ally, but after she made one error of judgement, he just coldly turned his back on her and left her to suffer alone.
There should have been some signs of remorse from the Enterprise crew after the forced meld, not the light-heartedness we got in the movie, that just somehow felt a little bit sadistic to me. In some ways I find it similar to the character of Harriet Jones in Doctor Who; she admired and respected the Doctor as a friend and ally, but after she made one error of judgement, he just coldly turned his back on her and left her to suffer alone.
I really wouldn't call being part of a conspiracy to carry out the assassination of Chancellor Gorkon, the attempted assassination of The President of the United Federation of Planets and to ultimately cause a Quadrant spanning War between the UFP and Kilingon Empire one error in judgement. And in no way shape or form to me are their any similarities between Valeris being part of that and Harriet Jones destroying a fleeing ship.
