Valeris?

[Christopher]

Yeah, and I'll agree that under most circumstances, that would be wrong. But it seems to me that it's not unreasonable to infer that the emotional trauma caused by a forced mind meld would only equal rape if the meld was not specifically targeted for certain portions of the mind and not others.

I don't think you're getting it. It's the act of invasion itself that's a violation. Which parts of the mind get rummaged into isn't relevant any more than, if you'll pardon my bluntness, which orifice gets penetrated alters the definition of rape. It's not the mechanics or the specifics of the act that matter, it's the fact that it happens at all.

Not to mention the fact that invading someone's mind by force could theoretically cause them permanent neurological damage. It goes beyond emotional trauma to something that could endanger the very self. It's entirely logical to postulate that a society of telepaths would therefore have taboos against forced mental invasion that are taken as seriously as our society's taboo on rape. That's what's really implausible about the Spock-Valeris situation: that Spock would force himself on her in any circumstances. By Vulcan standards, it should be a heinous crime.

And even aside from Vulcan standards, even aside from rape analogies, what we were shown onscreen was essentially an act of torture, and that was completely out of character for Spock, Kirk, and Starfleet. That scene was just wrong, however you define it.

 

[Sci]

Yeah, and I'll agree that under most circumstances, that would be wrong. But it seems to me that it's not unreasonable to infer that the emotional trauma caused by a forced mind meld would only equal rape if the meld was not specifically targeted for certain portions of the mind and not others.

I don't think you're getting it. It's the act of invasion itself that's a violation. Which parts of the mind get rummaged into isn't relevant any more than, if you'll pardon my bluntness, which orifice gets penetrated alters the definition of rape. It's not the mechanics or the specifics of the act that matter, it's the fact that it happens at all.

I'm not arguing that. While any such forced mind meld would be a violation inherently, I am simply arguing that not every such forced mind meld would be equal in immorality to rape.

And even aside from Vulcan standards, even aside from rape analogies, what we were shown onscreen was essentially an act of torture, and that was completely out of character for Spock, Kirk, and Starfleet. That scene was just wrong, however you define it.

This part I do agree with.

 

[Dark Gilligan]

Man, that would've been a heart-wrenching story arc, and at the same time shocking and doubly more interesting than an outsider plot device conspirator who we have never seen before.

Felix Gaeta from BSG immediately comes to mind. He wasn't a random bridge officer who mutineed against Adama. He was Felix Gaeta. We watched him fall, slowly and painfully, and the logic of his actions made sense. He believed his course to be right, and because we knew him and cared for him we allowed ourselves to ponder if he actually was right after all.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

When I first saw TUC, the forced mind-meld kind of seemed justified as Kirk and co. were in a hurry to get to Khitomer and save the President and they needed that information fast. It also made sense dramatically, but I still couldn't get past the simple fact that it was a full blown mind-rape. What was worse was that Kirk seemingly ordered Spock to do it, and then Spock just did it without even questioning it. That even made it seem as though Spock had done it before . It seems against Spock's character to do such a thing, even in the extreme circumstances that they were facing...

I've always looked at that Spock felt betrayed and was pissed (he is half-human after all and certainly isn't perfect). Combine that with the heat of the moment and I can see Spock not questioning the order.

What's wrong with Vulcan's Heart? I thought it was a fantastic novel.

I'm just not a fan of the Spock-marries-Saavik thing. I was with the earlier novels where they had a different kind of relationship. The novel has other faults, but that one stuck with me.

Ah, fair enough. I didn't read the earlier TOS books, so I didn't know about whatever direction they took. Admittedly, my TOS reading is rather slim.

Valeris was a plot device. Had she been Saavik as originally planned, her character arc from beginning to end could have been tragically facinating. But as Valeris she was simply an instrument of cold logic without Saavik's backstory or connection with the audience. Her moment in the spotlight was fulfilled. No need to go back.

I agree with the decision not to make Saavik the saboteur though because, as was said, it would've been too shocking a decision. Saavik wouldn't turn against them.

Ah but that's exactly why it would have been so fascinating. Imagine Saavik, half-Romulan, and still bitter about the murder of David on the Genesis Planet, hearing Kirk's words "I could never forgive them for the death of my son"... and then joining a (partially Romulan) anti-peace conspiracy, believing that she was not turning against Kirk & co, but acting as they in their heart of hearts believed right.. Man, that would've been a heart-wrenching story arc, and at the same time shocking and doubly more interesting than an outsider plot device conspirator who we have never seen before.

Oh, man, that would have been incredible. I already think The Undiscovered Country is the best Trek film but this would have made it all the better.

 

[JD]

It's entirely logical to postulate that a society of telepaths would therefore have taboos against forced mental invasion that are taken as seriously as our society's taboo on rape.

Add to that the fact that a consensual mind meld was considered taboo for centuries. So if normal melds are/were considered an imoral act, then I don't want to imagine what forced melds must be considered.

 

[Christopher]

^You don't have to imagine. We've seen it, in ENT: "Fusion." Tolaris attempts to force a meld on T'Pol, and it's treated analogously to attempted rape.

 

[JD]

Ah, I've only seen most of the pre-season 4 Enterprise episodes once, so I completely forgot about that.

 

[Lonemagpie]

Col. West was sentenced to erasure from existence, at least if you go by the theatrical version.

Damn Time Lords causing trouble again...

 

[Thestral]

And even aside from Vulcan standards, even aside from rape analogies, what we were shown onscreen was essentially an act of torture, and that was completely out of character for Spock, Kirk, and Starfleet. That scene was just wrong, however you define it.

That, to me, is what would be worth following up on - how do Spock, Kirk, and co. move forward - how are they affected by the knowledge that they used rape/torture (depending on how you read the scene) to "do good?" And how does/did Valeris recover or not from that?

I don't think you're getting it. It's the act of invasion itself that's a violation. Which parts of the mind get rummaged into isn't relevant any more than, if you'll pardon my bluntness, which orifice gets penetrated alters the definition of rape. It's not the mechanics or the specifics of the act that matter, it's the fact that it happens at all.

I'm not arguing that. While any such forced mind meld would be a violation inherently, I am simply arguing that not every such forced mind meld would be equal in immorality to rape.

But in this particular case, I think it is and was, based on Valeris' attempt to resist, the forced intimacy that the direction and acting indicated, and the sexual/power subtexts that had been set up between Spock and Valeris. Not to mention the (eventually) distubed looks on some of Our Heroes faces while they watched this happening in public.

I've always looked at that Spock felt betrayed and was pissed (he is half-human after all and certainly isn't perfect). Combine that with the heat of the moment and I can see Spock not questioning the order.

Perhaps an understandable reaction, but I would've liked some followup, some indication that Spock and Kirk realize they've violated Valeris and some indication of remorse.

 

[EJA]

I'm with Christopher and Kestrel on this.

 

[Mysterion]

Man, that would've been a heart-wrenching story arc, and at the same time shocking and doubly more interesting than an outsider plot device conspirator who we have never seen before.

Felix Gaeta from BSG immediately comes to mind. He wasn't a random bridge officer who mutineed against Adama. He was Felix Gaeta. We watched him fall, slowly and painfully, and the logic of his actions made sense. He believed his course to be right, and because we knew him and cared for him we allowed ourselves to ponder if he actually was right after all.

Excellent analogy. I think this makes a very good case as to why it should have been Saavik and not Valeris in ST6.

 

[Mojomoe]

Ok, I've been reading this for a while now trying to decide, and now I'm gonna jump in.

No personal attacks here, this is just my opinion. I respect all you guys.

This is getting ridiculous. I'm getting a little tired of seeing (what I am guessing are?) males discussing "rape" as though they know what the hell it is. In general, we don't and can't. Rape is a product of the current human cultural condition, and the severe stratification between the sexes, in physical, social, and economic power. Rape, IN GENERAL, is heinous (among other reasons) because it is someone of much higher power leveraging that on a weaker person in an unprotectable act of violation.

The idea of "mind rape" is retarded.

Look at the specifics. Both Spock and Valeris are telepaths, apparently of equal status (Spock possibly weaker?), both are coldly logical and on an ever playing field. She had just coldly murdered two people whom she had used to kill (dozens?) more and start a war. She had information that he needed to stop a war, and she was not bring forthcoming.

Now, ironically I'm NEVER a supporter of the ends justifying the means. And I'm anti-military and the biggest supporter of human rights you'll ever meet. But this "mind rape" stuff has gotta stop. I never bought it for this scene. The one in Nenesis, sure, that's a direct analogue.

Look at it this way. Some wacko has programmer a nuclear strike with their MacBook. FBI raids the house, and forcibly removes the launch codes from his computer files to stop it, going through his personal files to do it. Is that Computer Rape? No. Because it's NOT RAPE. It is a violation (and before you act, it's on an INFINITELY lower magnitude and level of intimacy). But calling a telepathic invasion that we can't even imagine "mind rape," TO ME, seems a little immature and vulgar, and I'm not sure if it's for a good reason.

I do agree that it was an abhorrent psychological invasion that bordered on sadistic, but she was a murdering roghtwing warmongering nutjob. The sense I get is that they ALL felt bad, bad enough not to even mention it.

/rant

EDIT: came off a little strong. Too much coffee, bad day. No offense intended. I love all you guys! Please continue the great discussion, a d feel Freetown put me in my place.

 

[Christopher]

^Okay, it wasn't the same thing as rape if you take it literally. But it was played by the director with sexual subtext, and that's disturbing.

Besides... the horror of rape isn't just about the physical violation, it's about the psychological assault, the feeling of invasion and debasement. It's as much a mental thing as a physical one. So why wouldn't a literal mental invasion be similarly traumatic and morally objectionable, even if it isn't exactly the same thing? Does it have to be the same thing to be equally wrong?

 

[Warp Rider]

From what I remembered of the scene on my VHS, Spock seemed to be so pissed that he did not care anymore, but still went with the logical approach of getting that information. They needed it right away, there was no time for debate or objection. Everyone was pissed on the bridge pretty much; but after the meld was over... Spock was sad. Almost as if he was about to cry.

I don't think any of you have mentioned that little tid-bit. =P

 

[Deranged Nasat]

This is getting ridiculous. I'm getting a little tired of seeing (what I am guessing are?) males discussing "rape" as though they know what the hell it is. In general, we don't and can't. Rape is a product of the current human cultural condition, and the severe stratification between the sexes, in physical, social, and economic power.

That's not true. The primary motivation in most cases of rape is sexual gratification. The idea that "it's about power" was spread by certain groups of feminists as a means of furthering their ideology defining gender roles in terms of males having power and females lacking it (an ideology that is itself grossly unrealistic and dependent upon twisting definitions of power until you get the result you want). It is simply not true; it is an idea founded not in reality but in the desire to shore up certain ideological positions. A minority of rapists may take delight in subduing their victim, but usually their primary motivation is simply to engage in sex. And males do know what rape is; males are raped too, Mojomoe. I don't understand the distinction you're making here.

 

[shanejayell]

Going back to the original question... I suspect Valeris was shipped off to Vuklcan for treatment for psionic shock, or whatever you want to call her condition after the mind meld. After that I suspect she was imprisoned... possibly by the Federation or the Klingon Empire.



It would be interesting if she served a very LONG sentence, possibly a 100 plus years (Vulcans live long lives) and emerges into the current Trek novels, How would she cope, knowing the peace treaty she had opposed had helped save the Federation from both the Dominion and the Borg?

 

[Sci]

Going back to the original question... I suspect Valeris was shipped off to Vuklcan for treatment for psionic shock, or whatever you want to call her condition after the mind meld. After that I suspect she was imprisoned... possibly by the Federation or the Klingon Empire.

Hmm. Considering that both the Federation and Klingon Empires had participants in the Khitomer Conspiracy, and that Valeris's primary crimes would have been the murders of Burke and Sando and treason against the Federation, I rather imagine that the Federation would have resisted extradition to the Empire even though she was an accomplice to the assassination of Chancellor Gorkon -- just as the Empire would probably have resisted extradition of its subjects to the Federation even though some were accomplices to the attempted assassination of President Ra-ghoratreii.

Romulan Ambassador Nanclus probably got off scot-free by claiming diplomatic immunity and then running back to Ki Baratan as fast as he could get there, though.

 

[T'Girl]

`
After President "Red" Ra-ghoratreii got hold of Valeris, he figured a way of getting both of his boots up her ass.


T

 

[Sci]

"Kirk, you dumbass!"

 

[EJA]

From what I remembered of the scene on my VHS, Spock seemed to be so pissed that he did not care anymore, but still went with the logical approach of getting that information. They needed it right away, there was no time for debate or objection. Everyone was pissed on the bridge pretty much; but after the meld was over... Spock was sad. Almost as if he was about to cry.

I don't think any of you have mentioned that little tid-bit. =P

I know what you mean, but sadly, I don't think the fact that Spock was a bit choked up afterwards entirely justifies the mental assault. There were other ways to get the information, and the fact that it was done in front of a large group of people with nobody giving the slightest protest frankly makes it even worse. They really should have followed up on this more, I don't like that it's just been brushed under the carpet.