USS Enterprise (eventually) on Discovery?

[fireproof78]

the original TOS doesn't have a grips, and an odly angled and frankly hard to press trigger.

The new one is easier to hold and has a more finger friendly trigger.

Function is definitely preferred. I like the trigger. Reminds me a bit of the TFF phasers.

 

[Tuskin38]

bit better image using Anovos prop replica instead of the toy

 

[CorporalCaptain]

You can't see why bringing up the Smithsonian has nothing to do with the argument you replied to? You and others are using the original 1701's cultural significance as a catch-all "argument" to support your position, without ever connecting said argument to that position.

That is a non sequitur. A fallacy meant to give an argument the appearance of relevance via various tricks without actually ever having to use a relevant argument.

Part of what was under discussion included the supposed brilliance of the TOS design, a rather open-ended concept. Asking whether we could talk about something else that might have a bearing on that, both in and of itself and in relation to the other questions of the design's timelessness and popularity, or otherwise be indicative of it, is anything but a non sequitur.

 

[Tuskin38]

Part of what was under discussion included the supposed brilliance of the TOS design, a rather open-ended concept. Asking whether I could talk about something else that might have a bearing on that, both in and of itself and in relation to the other questions of the design's timelessness and popularity, or otherwise be indicative of it, is anything but a non sequitur.

It's in the Smithsonian because it's from a very popular TV show that inspired people. It's a classic.

That doesn't mean it is appropriate for a 21st century TV show.

 

[ITDUDE]

It's in the Smithsonian because it's from a very popular TV show that inspired people. It's a classic.

That doesn't mean it is appropriate for a 21st century TV show.

I had my eye on this thing for the last year or so. Someday soon I'll get it. Or maybe my SO will get it for me on my birthday.
It's also a classic, the original design was very popular. Very little design change happened to it in the last 50 years (some electronics internally for sure have been updated). It was made in, and is most definitely appropriate for the 21st century:

P.S. No this is not some historical picture. It is sold on amazon as we speak.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

It's in the Smithsonian because it's from a very popular TV show that inspired people.

That's no doubt a large part of it. But that doesn't explain why it's in the Air and Space Museum, as opposed to, say, the Museum of American History with Kermit the Frog and Archie Bunker's chair.

I'm going to theorize that the reasons why it's where it is have to do with specific means by which the model itself contributed to that inspiration.

The model was both extremely well-conceived and well-executed. It triggered a feeling that the fictional world was real. The starship model is therefore one of the most significant props participating in that process of inspiration. That's a testament to Jefferies' work and the way in which he manipulated and incorporated aerospace and nautical motifs. It therefore has direct relevance to both the brilliance and popularity of the design.

 

[Tuskin38]

The model was both extremely well-conceived and well-executed. It triggered a feeling that the fictional world was real. The starship model is therefore one of the most significant props participating in that process of inspiration. That's a testament to Jefferies' work and the way in which he manipulated and incorporated aerospace and nautical motifs. It therefore has direct relevance to both the brilliance and popularity of the design.

Then why did they change the design when Phase II started production? And then you have the refit in TMP.

Apparently it wasn't good enough for those productions.

 

[Tuskin38]

I had my eye on this thing for the last year or so. Someday soon I'll get it. Or maybe my SO will get it for me on my birthday.
It's also a classic, the original design was very popular. Very little design change happened to it in the last 50 years (some electronics internally for sure have been updated). It was made in, and is most definitely appropriate for the 21st century:

P.S. No this is not some historical picture. It is sold on amazon as we speak.

I have one similar to this. It's great.

 

[Jadeb]

Apparently it wasn't good enough for those productions.

Neither was the Discovery design. They pulled that one from the scrap heap of history.

 

[Tuskin38]

Neither was the Discovery design. They pulled that one from the scrap heap of history.

Discovery in DSC looks very little like that original concept art.

it has the same basic outline, that's it.

 

[Belz...]

Part of what was under discussion included the supposed brilliance of the TOS design, a rather open-ended concept. Asking whether we could talk about something else that might have a bearing on that, both in and of itself and in relation to the other questions of the design's timelessness and popularity, or otherwise be indicative of it, is anything but a non sequitur.

Speaking of non sequiturs, that post is some piece of misdirection.

That's no doubt a large part of it. But that doesn't explain why it's in the Air and Space Museum, as opposed to, say, the Museum of American History with Kermit the Frog and Archie Bunker's chair.

I'm going to theorize that the reasons why it's where it is have to do with specific means by which the model itself contributed to that inspiration.

Still irrelevant to the question of whether it's appropriate for a TV show in 2018. This is at least the third irrelevancy you've thrown in a row. I'm starting to wonder if you understand what's being discussed at all.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Then why did they change the design when Phase II started production? And then you have the refit in TMP.

Apparently it wasn't good enough for those productions.

In-universe, techy things were being upgraded, like, you know, in the real world.

From a practical standpoint, it was a given that the interior of the ship had to change. Since the interior had to change, it was probably deemed reasonable that there would be an expectation that the exterior would change too in conjunction with the interior. Why else it was changed, I really don't know what the thinking of the people involved was.

The remarkable thing, to me, though, is how little it changed.

---

"Two Nacelles and a Saucer." I'm sure there's a fan film in there somewhere. You're welcome, Internet.

 

[Jadeb]

Discovery in DSC looks very little like that original concept art.

it has the same basic outline, that's it.

An outline that wasn’t even worth refining back in the ‘70s.

 

[Tuskin38]

So looking at some quotes and BTS info, the extra detail put on the TMP Model compared to the TOS model was because it was going to be put on the big screen, the TV show sized model and details wouldn't look good on a 40 foot screen.

However the actual physical changes to the design were done because they wanted to, it was an evolution of the original series design, not because it was going to be on the big screen.

https://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki...ing_a_refit_Enterprise_for_The_Motion_Picture

Also apparently a diagram of the Phase II design actually shows up in the movies in some places.

 

[Belz...]

In-universe, techy things were being upgraded, like, you know, in the real world.

Everything changed pretty much 100% within two years, in-universe. Doesn't sound very realistic to me.

From a practical standpoint, it was a given that the interior of the ship had to change.

How so? I thought the designs of TOS were iconic and timeless.

An outline that wasn’t even worth refining back in the ‘70s.

And yet they did.

So looking at some quotes and BTS info, the extra detail put on the TMP Model compared to the TOS model was because it was going to be put on the big screen, the TV show sized model and details wouldn't look good on a 40 foot screen.

However the actual physical changes to the design were done because they wanted to, it was an evolution of the original series design, not because it was going to be on the big screen.

That's true. But the angled nacelles were part of Jefferies' original sketches, and he put them in there at the first opportunity.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Everything changed pretty much 100% within two years, in-universe.

We saw only the interiors of craft and facilities that we'd never seen before, comprising a vanishingly small fraction of one percent of all such things in universe. That doesn't come anywhere even vaguely close to supporting the idea that "everything changed pretty much 100% within two years."

If we take on screen dialog literally at its word, the clear implication was that the other surviving starships like the Enterprise still looked basically the way they did back in TOS. Only the Enterprise was upgraded at that point. It being refit over a period of 18 months with new designs was, like, a major plot point.

 

[Mudd]

Whatever they change moving in to Season 2, do you sincerely think that it will be as bright, smooth, and optimistic as a 60s adventure show?

Optimism is not a contemporary American value.

 

[Belz...]

We saw only the interiors of craft and facilities that we'd never seen before, comprising a vanishingly small fraction of one percent of all such things in universe. That doesn't come anywhere even vaguely close to supporting the idea that "everything changed pretty much 100% within two years."

Please stop. You're embarassing yourself.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

production values are not the same thing as designs. Nobody has ever suggested doing a contemporary show with 1960s production values — lighting; cinematography; fabrication of sets, props, and costumes; special effects technologies; stunt techniques. But updating those does not require, imply, or even necessarily suggest changing the underlying designs those production values are used to realize. The original Enterprise is a brilliant, timeless, and deservedly popular design, and looks as good today as it ever did.

*sheepishly, and in a small voice* that’s the point I was trying to make

It's only an issue in TWOK because you've made up that issue.

As a hypothetical to make a point about continuity, yes.

It sounds like you're deliberately trying to make issues out of nothing in order to have something to complain about.

There is much more for me to complain about in DSC. No, this wasn’t complaining - simply trying to make a point about continuity in regards to a fundamental element of Star Trek. Apologies if it came across as complaining.

What are you even talking about? You keep saying that but it makes zero sense.

Ok I’m obviously not explaining this clearly enough. You need to run with the premise in order to see where I’m coming from (even if you don’t agree with the premise - kind of like what the DSC producers want all Trek fans to do).

It starts with a big “if”:

1. If the DSC Enterprise has a window Spock knows about it.
2. If the reason for the window being added is that it’s more beneficial than a viewscreen, the TMP refit is at a disadvantage for having it removed.
3. Assuming point 2 is correct, and the DSC ship and the TMP ship are the same enterprise, then Spock should have mentioned in TWoK how useful having a window was. He didn’t.
4. By not mentioning the benefits of using a window over the screen (filled with static) Spock is negligent or incompetent - assuming point 2 is correct.

It was a hypothetical argument designed to illustrate that certain visual changes COULD have an effect on continuity, despite the arguments of those who would have us ignore visual changes.

Basically, if the change has indeed been made to the DSC Enterprise, then Spock forgot this really useful thing the ship used to be able to do and he should have flagged it up to Kirk.

Even the smallest change in the present COULD affect the future.

Surely you took basic temporal mechanics at the academy?
(I love Deep Space Nine)

 

[Mad Jack Wolfe]

Optimism is not a contemporary American value.

No, that would be inescapable, morbid dread. But it gets a bit tiresome after a while.