Unseen TOS....

[aridas sofia]

This is also worth looking at. It was apparently done for War of the Worlds in the 70s, but clearly reflects thinking Jefferies had put into TOS and later would put into Phase II. It gives some hint of how that forward hangar bulkhead might have been intended to look.

http://www.projectrho.com/SSC/War_of_the_Worlds-10.jpg

 

[Warped9]

Something to consider. If the shuttlecraft really were only about 22-24ft LOA then its overall height would allow it to slip under the forward observation gallery. But my 27ft. shuttlecraft definitely won’t clear under the gallery as you can see in my cross-section posted upthread.

 

[aridas sofia]

I don’t think that trapezoidal opening is meant to accommodate a shuttlecraft. On the sides they are alcoves. That might be all he had in mind on the forward bulkhead - he knew after all that the pylons fed to that area.

 

[Warped9]

I misunderstood.

 

[Warped9]

Except for adding lights to the shuttlecraft miniature this whole hangar deck exploration has gone beyond "what if TOS had had a bit more time and money" thought experiment. Unless Star Trek had been a feature film it's highly unlikely we would have seen more of the hangar deck than what we saw already. The miniature would have had to have been distinctly larger for them to show more of the hangar facilities such as I've done here. Nonetheless it's interesting to put a camera view deep inside the hangar facilities to glimpse a first-hand view of what it could look like if you were actually there.








The only thing left to do is for me to play with the observation gallery windows, and I'm not going to do that now. I'm going to leave that for another time.

I've already done the lower maintenance deck so I think it's time to move on to the next subject for Unseen TOS.


*I gotta say those views of being down on the deck with the shuttlecraft are particularly interesting. They sell the feeling of being in this huge area.

 

[Warped9]

“Return Of The Archons” - The way the episode is structured there is no real opportunity to catch even a glimpse if what the Archon could have looked like. And it’s not really necessary to the story. But we can still speculate.

“Errand Of Mercy” - A small scout class vessel two years before we get to see the Klingon D7. What could this possibly look like?

“A Taste Of Armageddon” - A Federation starship predating the Enterprise by some decades.

“Operation—Annihilate” - The Denevan ship that flew into the sun.

 

[137th Gebirg]

I always thought the Archon, as well as the Horizon from “A Piece of the Action”, were both Daedalus-class ships, for some reason.

 

[Warped9]

I always thought the Archon, as well as the Horizon from “A Piece of the Action”, were both Daedalus-class ships, for some reason.

Based on what? When these episodes were produced there were no such things as Daedalus-class ships. Thats a notion that didn’t exist until twenty some years later in TNG. As such it has no bearing here. How could Matt Jefferies envision something from a source that didn’t yet exist?

Yes, the sketch that would eventually be taken as the Daedalus existed since it was one of his concepts for the Enterprise, but it was a concept he rejected because he concluded spherical hulls look awkward. Why would he go back to that if he felt that way?

So either I reuse a design I already came up with (the Endurance) or I come up with something new.

 

[trynda1701]

Congratulations on that work on the hanger deck. The additional views are beautiful.


About the only other thing you could have done would have been to show what it might have looked like inside one of the control towers, but a basic room similar to how the observation corridor was shown in "Conscience of the King" would just have probably had a basic control panel with the jelly bean buttons, and maybe one or two of the computer banks boxes seen in the shuttle next to each seat. I doubt they would have shown a shuttle launch from the side through the windows, although that would have been cool to see!

 

[Warped9]

One of the views I posted is from one of the control towers. I did put a control panel in there, but I didn’t detail it.

 

[blssdwlf]

Looking at the ground level pics I just noticed that you made a change to the alcoves and removed the hatches.

 

[Warped9]

Looking at the ground level pics I just noticed that you made a change to the alcoves and removed the hatches.

I didn’t remove any hatches. They are there, but in the shadows with the same grey colour they might not be very apparent. I remember putting them there as access to between-the-hulls and access to ladders to the control towers.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Based on what?

I honestly don't know. It's just something that's been stuck in my brain for many years and I have no idea how it got there.

Edit: After checking out Memory Alpha to see if there is any corroborating evidence that supports what my creaky brain remembers, it does appear that there was a Daedalus class desk model in Sisko's office that had Horizon markings. So maybe that was it. The only other canonical Daedalus listed is the Essex from TNG "Power Play". Further down the page, it mentions that there was a CG-rendered Daedalus class with Archon markings on the cover of some book, so I suspect all those things just got jumbled up in my head-canon and there it is.

 

[Warped9]

^^ Thats understandable.

Part of the challenge of this project is isolating oneself from post TOS sources and influences. I constantly question myself on where I might be getting an idea from.

This where I differ from what was done in TOS-R where they intentionally retconned things into TOS that wouldn’t exist for years or decades after in the franchise.

While in Season 1 I’m trying to ignore what was done in Seasons 2 and 3 as well TAS; TMP and the other films.

 

[Michael]

Not sure I understand how a ship based on one of Matt Jefferies' earliest sketches for the original series is a “post TOS source or influence” or how it's any less valid as a possible design starting point for the Archon or Horizon than say one of your own designs based on early Jefferies sketches (that I would assume were also rejected by the man himself). I mean, it's your fan art and you do you, of course, but I'd appreciate a somewhat less patronizing tone if someone's going to suggest something that's not to your personal liking. Frankly, it's completely unwarranted, seeing as these are people interested in your art, and I see it way too often from you. Please try to work on that.

 

[trynda1701]

One of the views I posted is from one of the control towers. I did put a control panel in there, but I didn’t detail it.

And so you did! D'oh!

While in Season 1 I’m trying to ignore what was done in Seasons 2 and 3 as well TAS; TMP and the other films

I hadn't thought about that about later TOS episodes or seasons! So, what might Jeffries have come up with for the Klingon Scout ship, as you say, two seasons earlier than the Klingon Battlecruiser!

...it's your fan art and you do you, of course, but I'd appreciate a somewhat less patronizing tone if someone's going to suggest something that's not to your personal liking. Frankly, it's completely unwarranted, seeing as these are people interested in your art, and I see it way too often from you. Please try to work on that.

Not sure where you're getting a patronizing tone from @Warped9 . He may remind a poster about the original intent of not being influenced by future shows, even within later TOS as I commented on in my second quote here. Can't say I've sensed any such patronizing tone.

 

[aridas sofia]

“Not sure I understand how a ship based on one of Matt Jefferies' earliest sketches for the original series is a “post TOS source or influence” or how it's any less valid as a possible design starting point for the Archon or Horizon than say one of your own designs based on early Jefferies sketches (that I would assume were also rejected by the man himself). I mean, it's your fan art and you do you, of course, but I'd appreciate a somewhat less patronizing tone if someone's going to suggest something that's not to your personal liking. Frankly, it's completely unwarranted, seeing as these are people interested in your art, and I see it way too often from you. Please try to work on that.”

^ I think I can explain that. In the early 1980s, I published a large poster set that had as one of the designs featured a ship based on the Jefferies sketch from TMoST. I called it the “Horizon-Archon class” and gave a class listing that showed those lead ships had been lost. My design hewed pretty closely to the Jefferies sketch - probably too closely because the spherical primary hull looked just… too big.

A few years later the familiar Daedalus class appeared in, iirc, the Next Generation technical manual- a collaboration of Greg Jein and Mike Okuda, I think. They fixed the proportion problems of my version, but their ship departs more significantly and noticeably from that Jefferies idea.

So Warped is right - the Daedalus is really something that would not have existed in the 1960s. It is a refinement of Matt Jefferies’ idea. Given the premise of his project, it would be questionable at best to assume Jefferies would have finished his design the same way Jein and Okuda did, or that he would even have assigned that design to Horizon and Archon as I did.

 

[Michael]

^ I'm not sure I follow, to be honest. These are the sketches we are talking about, no?

Looks pretty close to what Jein and Okuda later drew up and what ended up as a model on the Deep Space Nine set.

What I don't get is how it's supposedly super far-fetched to suggest going back to those early Jefferies sketches for inspiration, when it's fine in other cases to go back to Jefferies sketches and be inspired by them. Seems to me the only difference is the fact that the one set of sketches was used on post-TOS shows, while others might not have been.

@trynda1701, I'm glad you didn't perceive anything as patronizing. Thanks for the feedback. For my tastes people's well-meaning comments are way too often used as an opportunity get into another “everything post-TOS sucks” rant. Which to me feels totally unnecessary.

 

[aridas sofia]

Those are the sketches, yes. I think if you compare to the eventual Daedalus design, the sphere in these sketches is bigger relative to the rest of the ship. This is the problem with the idea that Jefferies later noted in interviews. He didn’t want to do a saucer. He knew a sphere was mechanically an optimal form in low pressure environments. But I suspect he felt constrained not to make the sphere any smaller… for the ship he was designing for Star Trek.

Freed from that constraint, Jein and Okuda were able to “fix” the design.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-5vHPMx4ziIo/UhouODtAtAI/AAAAAAAAHco/UhUJfS3eBGk/s1600/daedalus.jpg

I think the point is not that the Jefferies sketch is the problem but that someone’s later, 1980s or 1990s refinement of the sketch is the problem.

 

[Warped9]

In the very least Jefferies rejected the sphere for the hero ship. Now he did not subsequently design any other Federation ships so there is no way to know if he would have revisited the sphere concept if he had. He might just as easily tackled any new designs with a largely clean sheet as look back over things he had previously rejected.