United Earth

[Tenacity]

Given that one of the requirements for Federation membership by the 24th Century is to have a single political entity governing the applicant world

In Attached, Picard mentions a unified world, and Crusher spoke of people being unified. No direct mention was made of a single political state, or a one world government.

What possible benefit could the UN still have, in a world where there is a real global government?

Why do the nations of the European Union still send separate ambassadors to the UN?

No it's not a one world government, but it is a governing body with 28 member nation/states. Inspite of their membership in the EU, European nations maintain a separate existence and have foreign associations ... and they send ambassadors to the UN.

The UE and the UN could serve and provide very different functions for Earth's nation/states.

In the future, maybe United Earth will be allowed to send a observer to the UN?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

No it's not a one world government, but it is a governing body with 28 member nation/states.

The UN is not, in any practical or efficient definition of the word, a "governing" body.

It's arguable whether the European Union is one, either.

In the future, maybe United Earth will be allowed to send a observer to the UN?

You didn't answer my question. What practical value could the UN offer that United Earth can't?

 

[GabyBee]

It's arguable whether the European Union is one, either.

The European Union does have a Parliament and together with the European Council it functions more or less as a bicameral legislature. And it does pass laws.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Ah yes, the EU, which is so "efficient" that it has a 'European Council', 'Council of the European Union', and 'Council of Europe'. Brought to you by the Department of Redundancy Department!

 

[Sci]

In Attached, Picard mentions a unified world, and Crusher spoke of people being unified. No direct mention was made of a single political state, or a one world government.

You have a creative interpretation of basic facts.

But suffice it to say that a planet is not unified if its polities have not yielded their sovereignty to a single, sovereign planetary state that has jurisdiction over them.

Why do the nations of the European Union still send separate ambassadors to the UN?

Because they can't decide if they want to shit or get off the pot; they want the E.U. to have some, but not all, of the powers of a sovereign state, and so they have delegated some, but not all, of the powers of a sovereign state to the E.U., and they will continue to try to sit on the fence until reality knocks them off it and forces them to pick a side just like it did with the 13 original states under the Articles of Confederation. And they'll utterly destroy small countries that threaten their unsustainable half-sovereign status until they can't (e.g., Greece).

In the future, maybe United Earth will be allowed to send a observer to the UN?

To what purpose?

* * *

Meanwhile, though, we know from "The Forge" and "Demons/Terra Prime" that United Earth maintains a United Earth Embassy to Vulcan; that it maintains a United Earth Diplomatic Corps; that its dead diplomatic corps and officers have the Flag of United Earth draped over their coffins; that Vulcan maintains an Ambassador to United Earth rather than an ambassador to the individual nation-states of Earth; and that United Earth controls Earth's foreign policy towards alien worlds. And of course, we know from "Broken Bow" and "The Xindi" that United Earth maintains a military force in the form of the MACOs, and that it maintains its own space service in the form of the United Earth Starfleet; and we know from "The Expanse" that United Earth is in charge of planetary defense.

So, we have a discrete territory; we have a military force; we have defense of the state; we have foreign policy; and we have control of diplomatic relations. All of the traits of a sovereign state.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

 

[Tuskin38]

Interesting to note that regions on earth in the 24th century are still referred to their old nation state names. The Ensign(?) who was from Canada in Lower Decks.

there are people who identify by the region they come from even if they're from, not just the earth.

Riker was said to be from Alaska not just Earth.

So it's safe to assume the earth is still sub divided into areas. Though weather they have political representation in the united Earth government is unknown.

There was a novel with a United States President surveying the damage to San Francisco after the Breen attack

Nation states could be like Provinces/States, they elect people to represent them in the united government

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Interesting to note that regions on earth in the 24th century are still referred to their old nation state names.

I don't see why they wouldn't be. Just because of the rise of United Earth as the world government, doesn't mean everything "under" it is going to just up and disappear. Earth still has nations, those nations still have states/provinces/whatever, and on down the line.

Similarly, United Earth didn't disappear when the Federation was formed. UE is simply a Federation member, just like any other.

 

[Tenacity]

The UN is not, in any practical or efficient definition of the word, a "governing" body.

I was referring to the European Union there.

But suffice it to say that a planet is not unified if its polities have not yielded their sovereignty to a single, sovereign planetary state that has jurisdiction over them.

Because people under one government are unified for that reason alone?

People and cultures are often unified across national borders (example the Kurds), while peoples inside the same nation are not unified at all (example Syrians).

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I was referring to the European Union there.

Them too.

 

[Tenacity]

You have a creative interpretation of basic facts.

That's just it, I not interpreting the facts.

The facts are neither Picard nor Crusher said word one about a single political state, or a one world government being a condition for joining the Federation.

To suggest otherwise is a interpretation, not based on facts.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The facts are neither Picard nor Crusher said word one about a single political state, or a one world government being a condition for joining the Federation.

They may not have said it literally, but the implication is clear. What other possible criterion could there be for deciding whether or not a planet's population is unified?

Indeed, it begs the question: What IS "unified", anyway? It's obviously not going to be a unity of cultures, because any planetary population is going to have a wide diversity in that regard. As it should be.

But when the Federation is considering a world's petition for membership, what would you expect them to care about? What makes a world suitable for Federation membership? What proves that this world is ready for it? It seems obvious that a unity of government is the only suitable candidate. It proves that, while a world may - and, indeed, should - have a wide diversity of culture, a true unified government is the best way to prove to the universe at large that a population has learned to make peace with its diversity and not let it devolve into warfare.

 

[GabyBee]

that Vulcan maintains an Ambassador to United Earth rather than an ambassador to the individual nation-states of Earth

Additionally, the Vulcans maintain consulates in several Earth cities, such as Berlin and Canberra. ("Terra Prime")

Generally speaking, a government maintains only one embassy with another government, usually (though not exclusively) in that nation's capital. Consulates may also be maintained in larger foreign cities where a government may have significant interests. Example would be that the Kingdom of Spain maintains an embassy in Washington D.C., and consulates in Boston, New York City, Miami, Los Angeles, et al.

 

[Tenacity]

What IS "unified", anyway?

Good question.

How about if the many people (of the many nations) feel a general sense of community and friendship for each other. Things that simply being under the same government wouldn't automatically be there.

t seems obvious that a unity of government is the only suitable candidate.

I disagree that this would be the only thing unity could be referring to.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ It would be the only realistic and quantifiable way to measure whether a world is ready to join the Federation. What else are they supposed to use?

 

[Tenacity]

The readiness of the populace, as opposed to the politic state of the governing organization.

The first is everything, the second is meaningless.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The readiness of the populace

And how is the Federation supposed to determine that?

 

[Tenacity]

Talking to them in large numbers would be a good place to start, interviewing individuals, analyzing their social patterns, examining how they react in various situations, from this (as much as possible) the Federation can determine if it even wants to be in association with this particular group of people.

A big consideration would be what the Federation even wants from a new member, what the current membership is looking to have happen when a new member population is added their exist population.

 

[Ithekro]

To be blunt, a ununited United Earth in the Federation will not work. Period.

United Earth as an alliance of all the countries on Earth that are also still keeping their precious sovereignty to be independent nations like they do today under the United Nations will fail. The United Nations has not power. United Earth quite clearly does. Power that cannot be held by a political entity without the sovereignty of the nations that are part of it being given up to that larger political body. United Earth cannot afford to repeat the mistakes of humanity from the 18th to 21st centuries.

First one was the United States of America under the Articles of Confederation. It did not work, nor could it work in the long term due to the issues between the state (then still sovereign countries in an alliance for lack of a better term). Had it still been under that structure in 1812, the country would have likely fallen to the British, rather than barely hold on.

Second was the League of Nations, which had even less power to do anything than the United Nations, because several of the large powers on the planet never joined (the United States refused to join, even though it was the President of the United States, Wilson's idea.) It had no functional ability to maintain the peace.

The United Nations holds better because everyone joined it, but it is still not all that effective. The larger powers ignore it. The Cold War drew a line in the Security Council so that the UN couldn't really do anything. It does not have any power realistically to enforce policy.

The European Union suffers due to its nations not taking the step the Americans took when they cast off the Article of Confederation. They are semi-unified and protected realistically under NATO, which includes members that are not part of the EU at all.

United Earth, in dealing with multiple alien species that control large numbers of planets along with Earth having colonies and independent worlds with humans on them as well, could not function effectively without actually being united. United Earth has several unified exploration and defense structures. A combined diplomatic corp. These are things that a sovereign country would have to give up to join the larger political structure in order for it to have the power to represent Earth to planets like Vulcan, or Andoria ,or the Klingons. There is no functional way Earth could have managed the Romulan War if United Earth was not the sovereign power on the entire planet.

Sovereign if the big fear. The Americans don't want to give it up. The Europeans don't want to give it up. Thus the United Nations is a toothless dog. It has gotten worse lately as nationalism has started to come again. The US is making rumblings of wanting to kick the UN out of New York. The UK is trying to leave the EU. The EU is having problems with its poorer countries. The UN can't effectively do anything against the US or Russia, and never really could.

 

[Tenacity]

There is no functional way Earth could have managed the Romulan War if United Earth was not the sovereign power on the entire planet.

Similar to how the dozens of second world war allies all had to renounce their individual sovereignty and combine into a single political state in order to defeat the axis powers.

Oh wait ...

The US is making rumblings of wanting to kick the UN out of New York.

We've had the "honor" of having the UN headquarters for several decades, time for some other city to have their turn at this important "honor." There are secondary headquarters located in Geneva, Vienna, and Nairobi, maybe one of them.

so that the UN couldn't really do anything. It does not have any power

Good.

 

[Ithekro]

World War II is not a good example. The Axis Powers are scattered single nation-states that have absorbed others around them, making it difficult to manage. The Surrounding Allied Powers eventually beat them into submission over time and via vastly larger industrial capacities. In Romulan War era terms, that would be Earth, Vulcan, Andoria, and Tellar against Romulus, and maybe some other planetary body that is allied to them. It would not be, the United States, Russia, the European Union, and Japan, allied with Sho'Kar, the Andorian Imperium, and a Tellarian Freehold, against the Romulan Star Empire.