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United Earth

Perhaps you are thinking of the World Government Summit.
Exactly, a international organization that is referred to as the "World Government." Crusher in Attached did mention nations join a organization called the "World Government."

I wasn't suggesting that they are the same organization, just along the same lines, a meeting place for nations and leaders to discuss international matters..
 
I doubt that Minister Samuels in ENT was the Prime Minister because if he was they would be correctly addressed as Prime Minister.
 
Well, he interacts with Starfleet. Although in matters touching upon crime and aliens, so he could be Interior or Exterior equally well. Or something futuristic, which would be my preference.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Well, he interacts with Starfleet. Although in matters touching upon crime and aliens, so he could be Interior or Exterior equally well. Or something futuristic, which would be my preference.

Timo Saloniemi
~Minister of Offworld affairs or Minister of the Sol system?

In the novels in the Vulcan government, the Minister dealing with other species/planetary systems is called The Foreign Minister, which suggests Vulcan has no nation states and so the concept of nationalities and ethnic/tribal groups does not exist. Interesting, is this what Earth is meant to be aiming for in the Star Trek universe?

P.S Interesting that the most powerful Earth politician will not be the USA President lol
 
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~Minister of Offworld affairs or Minister of the Sol system?

In the novels the Vulcan government the Minister dealing with other other species is called The Foreign Minister, which suggests Vulcan has no nation states and so the concept of nationalities and ethnic/tribal groups does not exist. Interesting, is this what Earth is meant to be aiming for in the Star Trek universe?

P.S Interesting that the most powerful Earth politician will not be the USA President lol
Minister for Extra Solar Affairs. Foreign Minister.
 
Sci said:
Perhaps you are thinking of the World Government Summit.
Exactly, a international organization that is referred to as the "World Government."

You can't call something that isn't a government a government. The World Government Summit isn't a world government, nor is it a non-governmental organization called "the World Government."

I wasn't suggesting that they are the same organization, just along the same lines, a meeting place for nations and leaders to discuss international matters..

We've already got that. It's called the United Nations. It is not a government.

I doubt that Minister Samuels in ENT was the Prime Minister because if he was they would be correctly addressed as Prime Minister.

My guess is he was UE Minister of Defence.

Well, he interacts with Starfleet. Although in matters touching upon crime and aliens, so he could be Interior or Exterior equally well. Or something futuristic, which would be my preference.

My interpretation would be that because Samuels was apparently the guy who was the driving force behind United Earth building a binding permanent alliance in the Coalition of Planets, he was probably the United Earth Foreign Minister.

I like to imagine that after the Coalition of Planets was founded, he became Prime Minister.

~Minister of Offworld affairs or Minister of the Sol system?

In the novels in the Vulcan government, the Minister dealing with other species/planetary systems is called The Foreign Minister, which suggests Vulcan has no nation states and so the concept of nationalities and ethnic/tribal groups does not exist.

I don't think that's necessarily the case -- it could simply be that because national polities have unified under a single planetary government, they no longer see each other as "foreign," whereas other planetary states are genuinely foreign to the Confederacy of Vulcan.

ETA:

For whatever it's worth, the ENT novel Rise of the Federation: A Choice of Futures by the TrekBBS's own Christopher L. Bennett establishes that the founding Federation Member States were United Earth, the Confederacy of Vulcan, the Andorian Empire, the United Planets of Tellar, and the Alpha Centauri Concordium.
 
...And what does it mean for Mars? So far, the only folks associated with Alpha Centauri have been humans, but is that humans originally from Earth who are now independent of Earth politically, or humans native to Alpha Centauri or other non-Earth location? That is, can a human colony have independence at this stage of the game, and if so, why is AC a special case?

"United Earth" is nicely different from "the United Planets of Tellar" in semantically excluding other planets in Earth's sphere of influence. Is that because Earth doesn't want to politically control its colonies, or is incapable of doing so, or doesn't want to be seen doing so?

Timo Saloniemi
 
The question is, what is the Alpha Centauri Concordium?

A human colony that was independent from Earth, not sure if Alpha Centauri had their own indigneous sentient beings that are not human.

...And what does it mean for Mars? So far, the only folks associated with Alpha Centauri have been humans, but is that humans originally from Earth who are now independent of Earth politically, or humans native to Alpha Centauri or other non-Earth location? That is, can a human colony have independence at this stage of the game, and if so, why is AC a special case?

"United Earth" is nicely different from "the United Planets of Tellar" in semantically excluding other planets in Earth's sphere of influence. Is that because Earth doesn't want to politically control its colonies, or is incapable of doing so, or doesn't want to be seen doing so?

Timo Saloniemi

I think Mars is also independent by the time of the COP, it should also have a seat at the table or maybe they did not want to join?
 
The question is, what is the Alpha Centauri Concordium?

The Alpha Centauri state, which had started out as a colony of United Earth but had become independent some time prior to 2161.

...And what does it mean for Mars?

In the continuity of the novels, the implication seems to be that Mars actually declared independence before United Earth was founded. Articles of the Federation by Keith R.A. DeCandido established that United Earth was created by the Traité d'Unification in 2130 (which, combined with "Attached"'s reference to old nation-states joining the world government in 2150, implies that some countries were holdouts for twenty years). The ENT novel The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing established that the Martian colonies rebelled in 2105, beginning with the Gundersdottir's Dome Rebellion and a series of strikes that damaged Earth's economy, and resulting in the Fundamental Declarations of the Martian Colonies and Martian independence as the Confederated Martian Colonies.

It is not clear against whom the Martian colonies were rebelling. I like to imagine they were rebelling against the remnants of large mega-corporations on Earth, and that the Martian rebellion played an important role in ending corporate power on Earth, enabling Earth to end capitalism and establish a democratic socialist system. But that's just me.

Either way, though, the implication is that the Confederated Martian Colonies, as a sovereign state, is actually older than United Earth. But, that same novel also establishes that Mars was very much the "cosmic Canada," perennially less powerful and wealthy than Earth and less influential in interstellar affairs.

So far, the only folks associated with Alpha Centauri have been humans, but is that humans originally from Earth who are now independent of Earth politically, or humans native to Alpha Centauri or other non-Earth location? That is, can a human colony have independence at this stage of the game, and if so, why is AC a special case?

The novels have established that both the Alpha Centauri Concordium and the Confederated Martian Colonies were sovereign states that originated as Earth colonies but became independent. The Alpha Centauri Concordium was one of the five founding Federation Member States in 2161; the Confederated Martian Colonies was the first new Federation Member State, joining shortly after its founding.

Other former Earth colonies that later became Federation Member State include Vega Colony (Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel) and Deneva (TNG: Losing the Peace).

"United Earth" is nicely different from "the United Planets of Tellar" in semantically excluding other planets in Earth's sphere of influence. Is that because Earth doesn't want to politically control its colonies, or is incapable of doing so, or doesn't want to be seen doing so?

Neither. It's mostly just to emphasize Earth's status as a unified planet -- the equivalent of George Washington referring to "united America" in his Second Inaugural Address.

I think the implication is that United Earth still maintains its own colonies, as established by the numerous canonical and non-canonical references to "Earth colonies" (that is, a colony falling under the political jurisdiction of United Earth, with representation in the Parliament of United Earth and whose citizens get to vote for the Federation Councillor for United Earth on the Federation Council).

I think Mars is also independent by the time of the COP, it should also have a seat at the table or maybe they did not want to join?

The Romulan War duology establishes that the Confederated Martian Colonies had a permanent representative to the Coalition of Planets, but seemingly did not wish to join as a full member, IIRC.
 
Alpha Centauri is 4 light years away, the planet must be rich in resources or close to other star system to be economically and politically free of Earth by 2161, just under 100 years of Earth discovering the warp drive. According to Memory Beta the 3 planetary system has 21 billion people by 24th century, that is mega fast population growth.
 
I think the implication is that United Earth still maintains its own colonies, as established by the numerous canonical and non-canonical references to "Earth colonies" (that is, a colony falling under the political jurisdiction of United Earth, with representation in the Parliament of United Earth and whose citizens get to vote for the Federation Councillor for United Earth on the Federation Council).

I can't remember, did we ever hear anything regarding how Earth picks its Federation councillor?
 
I can't remember, did we ever hear anything regarding how Earth picks its Federation councillor?

Well, Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel has the entire Federation Council as popularly elected in the 2160s, though the DS9 Relaunch novels set in the 2370s had established the Federation Councillor for the Andorian Empire as being appointed by the Presider of the Parliament Andoria as part of his/her cabinet. I don't remember anything establishing United Earth as changing its process, though, so I would default to the assumption that the Federation Councillor for United Earth remains popularly elected unless it is established otherwise.

Alpha Centauri is 4 light years away, the planet must be rich in resources or close to other star system to be economically and politically free of Earth by 2161, just under 100 years of Earth discovering the warp drive. According to Memory Beta the 3 planetary system has 21 billion people by 24th century, that is mega fast population growth.

I may be mistaken, but I think the "21 billion" figure comes from Star Trek: Star Charts; the novels have borrowed from Star Charts here and there, but contradicted it in other places. I can't remember the novels ever establishing Alpha Centauri as having 21 billion in population; it seems excessive to me, and I'd be disinclined to accept that figure. But your mileage may vary; if the Alpha Centauri Concordium consists of three developed Class-M planets, I suppose at 7 billion per planet it's not implausible.
 
I think it is more a question of, can we move enough people to that system for them to breed into that large of a population in under 100 years? Without totally depopulating Earth.

The old 1970s-80s explanation was that it was something like a Preserver settlement from Earth back in in the first millennium BC that was allowed to develop on its own separate from Earth for almost 3000 years. So it would already have a reasonably large population of humans, yet they'd be native born after so many generations. Likely having developed their own space flight system to populate the other M-class planets. But getting their warp capability from Cochrane, who would settle there late in life.

This would also tie-in with the Terra Nova idea, if Alpha Centauri was already inhabited.
 
I think it is more a question of, can we move enough people to that system for them to breed into that large of a population in under 100 years? Without totally depopulating Earth.

Well, ENT: Rise of the Federation: A Choice of Futures refers to the Alpha Centauri colony being established in violation of Earth law circa 2105, IIRC. So, assuming the 21 billion figure is from around 2375 (DS9's last season), that gives them 270 years to reach 21 billion.

I would imagine that between an economic system existing in a state of abundance, the human propensity for breeding, and immigration from other star systems -- remember, who knows how large a percentage of Alpha Centauri citizens may be non-Humans by 2375? -- the 21 billion figure is possible. I'm not sure if it's plausible, but it's not impossible.
 
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