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United Earth

The exact relationship between Starfleet and the UE is unclear, there is a association obviously, but maybe not that Starfleet directly takes orders from the UE leadership.

As I understand it, Starfleet (the Earth Starfleet, anyway) is a subdivision of the United Earth Space Probe Agency. There may be other services that are also part of UESPA, but Starfleet is the only one we know of for certain.

Where the MACOs figure into all this, we have no idea. Although I guess it's possible that both Earth Starfleet and MACO are part of UESPA...would make sense, actually.

As for taking orders: When (Minister) Nathan Samuels was aboard in the Demons/Terra Prime arc, he couldn't give orders to the crew. This probably means he wasn't the Prime Minister, because if he had been, then surely he'd have been Commander in Chief. Although in the novelverse he WAS the Prime Minister, so maybe there's something else at play here.
 
I've always imagined United Earth as something akin to the EU and Starfleet as a combination of NATO and NASA, but under UE supervision. Internally the UE members have wide-ranging autonomy and the UE is more unified when acting externally, such as with relations to other species and colonies. As far as the MACOs go, I imagine them being part of a United Earth Defence Force, which is an "army" equivalent. Starfleet would then be the "navy" equivalent.
 
After having a discussion about the MACO's in another thread, it got be thinking about this organisation that doesn't get mentioned too often and there is not alot on wiki info on it either. So correct me if am wrong, please but the United Earth came out of WW3 & First Contact where it's purpose was to unite all of humanity and rebuild, while always maintaining peace over conflict, sort of a UN that actually works. Starfleet and United Earth were separate agencies pre Federation and didn't really co-operate too much due to different mandates, one exploring space and alliances with other species and the other was solely about Earth domestic affairs?

Do you think TPTB missed a big opportunity to develop a storyline here? especially when the show did the 2 part Terra Prime storyline. I would of liked to see the Terra Prime group come from within United Earth, who feared that Starfleet was giving away Earth, especially after the Xindi attack. A sort of coup d'etat that put it in direct conflict with Starfleet for the battle of Earth (A little like Paradise Lost in DS9). It would of been nice to have seen United Earth Military built up over the show, showing it having a sizable defence force of Earth and the solar system with ships n man power and a brief arc of several episodes that basically saw Earth undergo a civil war with Terra Prime leading the inital charge leading into the Coalition of Planets which eventually became the United Federation of Planets. It would also seem logical that in this scenario, Section 31 was created from United Earth Military offices to make sure Earth and later the Federation's interest were protected by any means necessary.

Hell you could of even had the Romulans, manipulating the whole affair if you wanted as they were desperate for the COP/UFP to ever exist as it would change the balance of power in the Quadrant. Just an idea ;)
Berman and Braga wanted to do the whole first season on Earth, while the Enterprise was being constructed. UPN wanted a ship in space, so we only got tidbits here and there.

If that had panned out as initially pitched, we might have gotten to learn a great deal more about the governmental relationships on Earth, and how they affect Starfleet. Then, at the end of season 1, they would launch the ship.
 
Berman and Braga wanted to do the whole first season on Earth, while the Enterprise was being constructed.
What would the episodes have been about? Archer assembling his crew one person per episode?
 
erman and Braga wanted to do the whole first season on Earth, while the Enterprise was being constructed

That's too much, its still Star Trek after all, even after they loss the name for 2 seasons. Flashbacks would of worked but they weren't cool till 2005.
 
Why not? Vulcans have been shown through out the various series to largely have a "Vulcan Prime" philosophy towards Humans and other species. The Vulcans make the Earth Prime people look like rank beginners.

The Vulcans probably fully expect the other members of the CoP to hold similar species-centric views to their own.

Hardly a reason not to have a species in the CoP.I think more what the OP said, a United Nations that works. A intergovernmental organization, and less a all encompassing world-wide single nation/state. Kind of like the current "world government" that meets in Dubai every year.The exact relationship between Starfleet and the UE is unclear, there is a association obviously, but maybe not that Starfleet directly takes orders from the UE leadership.I like the idea I read here a few years ago that the MACO's are a part of one of Earth's national militaries, and wer "loaned" to Starfleet, somewhat like how military units today go on peacekeeping mission through the United Nations.
Well there is a difference between an attitude of 'piss off our planet you alien scumbag, we want nothing to do with you all' and making baby clones that die in order to make a racist point and an attitude of 'our philosophy of logic is more enlightened than you offworlders and btw human I am 3 times stronger than you, but can we do still do business together.'
The Vulcans officially believe in IDIC, the practice of every day Vulcans might be something else, but a planet with official racist views would not want to do business with Vulcans or anyone else, as shown by Terra Prime's attitude. TP goal was to end the COP before it even begun, so if they had succeeded no other planet would want to do business with them. Why should they? Why trade resources or protect people (mutual defense pacts) with a species who want you dead and despise your very existence?
Think of a real world situation, when people called for boycotts of South Africa for the state's apartheid views, they were in economic and cultural isolation for decades. (If only those same people knew what was going on officially 'Down South' in the USA, they would have been just as disgusted).
 
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Officially prehaps, however living their lifes day by day IDIC is clearly ignored in favor of a "we're better than anyone else" philosophy.
Doesn't mean you cannot do business with them or they won't do business with you. Terra Prime want all aliens gone or dead, I'd take the Vulcan pov with those choices.
 
That's too much, its still Star Trek after all, even after they loss the name for 2 seasons. Flashbacks would of worked but they weren't cool till 2005.
Well, people were trying to get the "Starfleet Academy" series going for like 3 decades. And they already had a series with 7 seasons taking place on a space station. There are all sorts of stories that could come out of that. It doesn't have to be the whole season. It ended up being only the first half of the first episode.
 
Money, which is the heart of trade. Who cares if your trading partner like you?
Terra Prime don't want alien money they want the aliens gone and to be left alone. There were an isolationist and racist party. The rest of the galaxy would get on very well without them.
 
Why not? Vulcans have been shown through out the various series to largely have a "Vulcan Prime" philosophy towards Humans and other species. The Vulcans make the Earth Prime people look like rank beginners.

When, post-Reformation, have the Vulcans ever tried to expel all non-Vulcans from their system by threatening mass murder?

Hardly a reason not to have a species in the CoP.I think more what the OP said, a United Nations that works. A intergovernmental organization, and less a all encompassing world-wide single nation/state.

That idea contradicts the canonical evidence.

We know from "Attached" that by 2150 -- aka, one year before ENT starts -- there is a world government.

We know from "Broken Bow" that Soval is the Vulcan Ambassador.

We know from "The Forge" that United Earth operates an embassy on Vulcan. We also know from "The Forge" that when they died, members of something called the United Earth Diplomatic Corps had their caskets draped in the Flag of United Earth.

We know from real life that it is sovereign states that employ diplomatic corps, operate embassies, exchange ambassadors, and drape their fallen service members' caskets in flags.

Seems pretty clear to me that United Earth pre-UFP is a sovereign state. I'm sure it practices federalism and has a constitutional arrangement that protects a great deal of autonomy for its constituent polities -- running an entire planet almost necessitates that -- but it is clearly (pre-UFP) a sovereign state, as is, say, the Andorian Empire.

Kind of like the current "world government" that meets in Dubai every year.

There is no world government, and there is no world government that meets in Dubai every year.

Perhaps you are thinking of the World Government Summit. But the WGS is not a world government; it is a non-governmental organization that seeks to facilitate intergovernmental cooperation for the future.

As I understand it, Starfleet (the Earth Starfleet, anyway) is a subdivision of the United Earth Space Probe Agency. There may be other services that are also part of UESPA, but Starfleet is the only one we know of for certain.

Where the MACOs figure into all this, we have no idea. Although I guess it's possible that both Earth Starfleet and MACO are part of UESPA...would make sense, actually.

I always assumed that the Military Assault Command Organization was a special operations division of a larger United Earth Army which was itself part of the United Earth Ministry of Defense, and the United Earth Starfleet was a division of the United Earth Space Probe Agency. I figure the MACOs were seconded to Archer's command. But that's just my speculation.

As for taking orders: When (Minister) Nathan Samuels was aboard in the Demons/Terra Prime arc, he couldn't give orders to the crew. This probably means he wasn't the Prime Minister, because if he had been, then surely he'd have been Commander in Chief.

Not necessarily. I want to give a bit of background on something pertinent to this issue, so bear with me. One of the things to remember about parliamentary systems is the consequence of dividing the roles of head of government and head of state. This concept can be a bit foreign to Americans, but I think one of the clearest ways to think about it is this: it's like the difference between when the U.S. President is pursuing her partisan agenda, and when the President is acting as the common leader of all Americans. Sometimes, the President is saying, "We must pass this particular tax reform because it will be better for X;" and sometimes the President is saying, "We are all Americans and we all believe this."

Parliamentary systems often divide those roles between the Prime Minister (or analogous office) and the President or Monarch, with the President/Monarch being the mostly ceremonial, nonpartisan office everyone respects and has in common. The personal embodiment of the unity of the state. This in comparison to the Prime Minister, who represents the temporary administration of the day.

So often, you have a situation where the commander-in-chief of the armed forces of the state is not actually the Prime Minister. So, for instance, the President of the Republic of Austria is the commander-in-chief of the Federal Armed Forces, even though it is the Federal Chancellor who is the head of government who makes real decisions; the President of the Italian Republic is the commander-in-chief of the Italian Armed Forces, even though the real leader is the President of the Government of the Italian Republic; the Queen of the United Kingdom is the commander-in-chief of the British Armed Forces, even though the legal exercise of her royal powers with regards to the armed forces falls to the Minister of Defense (and the Queen is of course expected to follow the advise of her Prime Minister). Etc.

So it is not at all implausible for the Prime Minister of United Earth to attempt to issue an order in the heat of the moment to the commanding officer of a United Earth Starfleet vessel, only for that commanding officer to point out that, yes, legally-speaking, the Prime Minister is not part of the legal chain of command. In fact, as I understand it, if the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom were to attempt to issue a direct order to the commanding officer of, say, HMS Queen Elizabeth, that commanding officer could quite accurately reply that the Prime Minister had no legal capacity to issue such an order, and that she would only obey an order from the Queen or the Minister of Defense via the correct Royal Navy channels.

Presumably, if this arrangement is how U.E. operates, then the correct procedure for a Prime Minister Samuels to follow would have been for him to either order the United Earth Minister of Defense or Minister of Space Exploration to herself issue the order to the United Earth Starfleet admiralty who would themselves issue the order to acting commanding officer Sato, or for Samuels to advise the President of United Earth to issue that order to the admiralty.

Although in the novelverse he WAS the Prime Minister, so maybe there's something else at play here.

In fairness, the ENT Relaunch novels are ambiguous as to whether or not Samuels was Prime Minister during the Terra Prime crisis. He is Prime Minister in the books set after that crisis, but it is possible he was only part of the cabinet at the time. I always figured he was Foreign Minister of United Earth during "Demons/Terra Prime," myself, though I like the idea that he becomes Prime Minister of United Earth after that.
 
Oh, OK then. I honestly did not know which is the Commander in Chief (the President or the Prime Minister) in parliamentary republics like this. So I guess Lydia Littlejohn would be the C-in-C at this time, then...
 
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Oh, OK then. I honestly did not know which is the Commander in Chief (the President or the Prime Minister) in parliamentary republics like this. So I guess Lydia Littlejohn would be the C-in-C at this time, then...

Yeah, my guess is that the President of United Earth is the mostly-ceremonial commander-in-chief of United Earth's armed forces and space forces, and that the President issues orders on the advice of the Prime Minister and/or Defense Minister. This is all just speculation though.

Here's another complicating factor from real life, though: Sometimes the commander-in-chief changes based on the situation! For instance, normally the Federal Minister of Defense holds supreme command over the German Bundeswehr. But! If the Bundestag declares a state of defense, the Chancellor of the Federal Republic of Germany assumes supreme command! So at no point does the President of the Federal Republic of Germany have command over the Bundeswehr, even though he receives military honors due to his position as head of state.

And there are plenty of other constitutional arrangements, to boot.

Bottom line is, we don't really know the United Earth Starfleet chain of command, but there are at least two scenarios under which the sitting Prime Minister might not by law be commander-in-chief even if he is normally able to de facto control the armed forces.
 
Weren't the MACO's already space soldiers? They had their own EVA suits, and off-world training programs.
 
As I understand it, Starfleet (the Earth Starfleet, anyway) is a subdivision of the United Earth Space Probe Agency. There may be other services that are also part of UESPA, but Starfleet is the only one we know of for certain.

"For certain" is a tad much to deduce from the fact that the carpet in a meeting room happens to have a symbol where UESPA and Starfleet share space. It could mean one is subordinate to the other (no telling which is which), or that they are equal partners in a rare joint operation worth commemorating in art, or something else altogether.

Where the MACOs figure into all this, we have no idea. Although I guess it's possible that both Earth Starfleet and MACO are part of UESPA...would make sense, actually.

Since when have military organizations been part of an "agency"?

As for taking orders: When (Minister) Nathan Samuels was aboard in the Demons/Terra Prime arc, he couldn't give orders to the crew. This probably means he wasn't the Prime Minister, because if he had been, then surely he'd have been Commander in Chief. Although in the novelverse he WAS the Prime Minister, so maybe there's something else at play here.

Specifically, Samuels couldn't countermand the orders under which Hoshi Sato was operating; somebody directly in her chain of command was needed for that. How does that work ITRW? Can the CinC waltz in and declare the orders of a vessel CO null and void?

We know from "Attached" that by 2150 -- aka, one year before ENT starts -- there is a world government.

As regards this old chestnut, we know that in 2150, there's a world government, and that sovereign nations are joining it. Does this mean the world government existed alongside standalone sovereign nations?

We also know there's a United Earth Space Probe Agency in existence a century before that date, launching probes across the galaxy, so the words "United Earth" don't need to carry much factual weight (indeed, googling for real organizations by that name today yields plenty of hits).

Not that this should detract from the argument of Sci. It's just that these two tidbits aren't unambiguous evidence, but further ambiguous variables to be debated, even when the overall conclusion is that a mere loose alliance beyond 2150 is not a realistic interpretation.

Timo Saloniemi
 
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