Undiscovered Country Dinner Scene

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Charles Phipps, Oct 10, 2017.

  1. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2009
    Location:
    Asheville, NC
    Hey, at least the Klingons of this period let women serve in positions of high authority.
     
  2. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2001
    Location:
    Dahar Master final exams
    There was similar discussion in the STD forum. The Klingons are straightforward about their objective: outright conquest and rule. From their point of view, the Federation deviously and insidiously extends control over other star systems and planets with a message of plurality and multiculturalism, while in reality everyone ends up playing second fiddle to the humans who dominate everything.

    Kor
     
    JonnyQuest037 and Smellmet like this.
  3. Satron

    Satron Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2017
    All this misses is a reference to root beer.
     
    cardinal biggles and johnnybear like this.
  4. Mojochi

    Mojochi Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2007
    Exactly. When he says "I Beg Your Pardon?" That's not an inquiry. It's the polite formal way of saying "Come again, mother###er?". I don't know that he'd intended Kirk to say the Hitler remark specifically, but he knew what that remark meant, once Kirk had said it, & so did Gorkon, hence why he wrapped it up with his "Long way to go" remark

    I'd say Chang was definitely baiting him, & knew he'd hooked him with that remark, & wanted to emphasize it. He'd been baiting him since he stepped off the transporter pad. Why wouldn't he be? His intention was to frame the man for an attack. It's in his interest to try to fuel some animosity. "In space, all warriors are cold warriors"? Yeah... baiting.

    Of course the scene is awkward. It's supposed to be. There's plenty of nitpicks with this movie, but I don't find that scene overly condemnable myself.
     
  5. johnnybear

    johnnybear Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    Whatever you say about this movie, the Federation and the Klingons soon became fast friends just like the Organians said they would!
    JB
     
  6. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2001
    Location:
    Dahar Master final exams
    The Klingons were well aware of the darker parts of human history, such as the Nazi atrocities. And this definitely affected their view of homo sapiens. This goes back to Day of the Dove, in which Mara said, "I've heard of their atrocities, their death camps. They will torture us for our scientific and military information."

    Kor
     
  7. Green

    Green Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2016
    Mara was not referring to historical death camps, she was clearly talking about current (nonexistent) death camps.
     
  8. johnnybear

    johnnybear Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    Klingon propaganda, eh! :p
    JB
     
  9. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2001
    Location:
    Dahar Master final exams
    My impression has always been that she thought they were continuing the practice that had occurred in the 20th century.

    Kor
     
  10. johnnybear

    johnnybear Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    The Federation thought the same of the Klingons too! Kirk's comments to Ayleborne about Klingon occupation also had the same vibe! Although I couldn't see any race subjugated by the Klingons having a better life than what they'd had before to be honest even if the death camps and suppression of the people wasn't true, although Kor seemed to imply they were!
    JB
     
  11. Marsden

    Marsden Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2013
    Location:
    Thulcandra
    What I find funny about this line of discussion is we do see a Klingon death camp, unless Rura Penthe is supposed to be the Klingon Riviera. So no matter how nice Gorkon is supposed to be and how unfairly we judge these Klingons about their eating habits, Gorkon still has a major death camp running under his administration. Does any one think the Federation has and equivalent to that?

    Atzetubr can take her opinions and look in the mirror, how many non Klingons are on the Klingon ships? But they have no problem using non Klingons for slave labor on Rura Penthe. But yeah, whatever.
     
  12. Paradise City

    Paradise City Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2015
    Atzetubr is holding the Federation to its own values. The Federation claims it's a multiracial union that gives all races parity of esteem. But in reality its officers speak of "human rights" and the bulk of its *military* personnel are humans. Atzetubr's point is for all the yak of being a multiracial union; humans are still the top dog. The Federation is actually a defacto human empire.

    Whereas the Klingons are what they say they are - conquerers. No pretence there.
     
    Kor, jaime and JonnyQuest037 like this.
  13. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Walrus Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2001
    Location:
    Sitting on a cornflake.
    Why do I keep thinking this thread's title is "Undiscovered Country Diner"?
     
  14. Green

    Green Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2016
    The Federation is a human empire. LOL
     
  15. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Location:
    Walking distance from Starfleet HQ
    If you can find the place, try the undiscovered country fried steak.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2018 at 6:37 AM
  16. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Location:
    Bristol, United Kingdom
    I think it would have been nicer to see more nuanced approach to the Klingon and Romulan Empires. Empires are limited by resources and interstellar ones include your ability to both protect and control your subjects. Just how many Klingons does it take to pacify and retain control over an entire world? The Roman Empire did not expand by force alone. There was considerable cooperation with local populations. They must be bringing something to the table surely?

    What we see here are left wing social democracy Federation policies versus right wing dictatorship Klingon policies. Strange if right wingers are anti Klingon just because they look funky.

    Counterpoint is that the Federation can be viewed as colonial, paying lip service to local cultures as long as they comply with the following 10,000 rules to join our club.
     
  17. Marsden

    Marsden Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2013
    Location:
    Thulcandra
    I am anti-hypocrite. And that's what the Klingons delegation appears to me to be.

    That bitch didn't even cry when her father was killed. :p