Hey, at least the Klingons of this period let women serve in positions of high authority.
Undiscovered Country Dinner Scene
- Thread starter Charles Phipps
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There was similar discussion in the STD forum. The Klingons are straightforward about their objective: outright conquest and rule. From their point of view, the Federation deviously and insidiously extends control over other star systems and planets with a message of plurality and multiculturalism, while in reality everyone ends up playing second fiddle to the humans who dominate everything.
Kor
Kor
Exactly. When he says "I Beg Your Pardon?" That's not an inquiry. It's the polite formal way of saying "Come again, mother###er?". I don't know that he'd intended Kirk to say the Hitler remark specifically, but he knew what that remark meant, once Kirk had said it, & so did Gorkon, hence why he wrapped it up with his "Long way to go" remark
I'd say Chang was definitely baiting him, & knew he'd hooked him with that remark, & wanted to emphasize it. He'd been baiting him since he stepped off the transporter pad. Why wouldn't he be? His intention was to frame the man for an attack. It's in his interest to try to fuel some animosity. "In space, all warriors are cold warriors"? Yeah... baiting.
Of course the scene is awkward. It's supposed to be. There's plenty of nitpicks with this movie, but I don't find that scene overly condemnable myself.
Whatever you say about this movie, the Federation and the Klingons soon became fast friends just like the Organians said they would!
JB
JB
The Klingons were well aware of the darker parts of human history, such as the Nazi atrocities. And this definitely affected their view of homo sapiens. This goes back to Day of the Dove, in which Mara said, "I've heard of their atrocities, their death camps. They will torture us for our scientific and military information."
Kor
Kor
Klingon propaganda, eh! 
JB
JB
My impression has always been that she thought they were continuing the practice that had occurred in the 20th century.
Kor
The Federation thought the same of the Klingons too! Kirk's comments to Ayleborne about Klingon occupation also had the same vibe! Although I couldn't see any race subjugated by the Klingons having a better life than what they'd had before to be honest even if the death camps and suppression of the people wasn't true, although Kor seemed to imply they were!
JB
JB
What I find funny about this line of discussion is we do see a Klingon death camp, unless Rura Penthe is supposed to be the Klingon Riviera. So no matter how nice Gorkon is supposed to be and how unfairly we judge these Klingons about their eating habits, Gorkon still has a major death camp running under his administration. Does any one think the Federation has and equivalent to that?
Atzetubr can take her opinions and look in the mirror, how many non Klingons are on the Klingon ships? But they have no problem using non Klingons for slave labor on Rura Penthe. But yeah, whatever.
Atzetubr can take her opinions and look in the mirror, how many non Klingons are on the Klingon ships? But they have no problem using non Klingons for slave labor on Rura Penthe. But yeah, whatever.
Atzetubr is holding the Federation to its own values. The Federation claims it's a multiracial union that gives all races parity of esteem. But in reality its officers speak of "human rights" and the bulk of its *military* personnel are humans. Atzetubr's point is for all the yak of being a multiracial union; humans are still the top dog. The Federation is actually a defacto human empire.
Whereas the Klingons are what they say they are - conquerers. No pretence there.
Whereas the Klingons are what they say they are - conquerers. No pretence there.
If you can find the place, try the undiscovered country fried steak.
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I think it would have been nicer to see more nuanced approach to the Klingon and Romulan Empires. Empires are limited by resources and interstellar ones include your ability to both protect and control your subjects. Just how many Klingons does it take to pacify and retain control over an entire world? The Roman Empire did not expand by force alone. There was considerable cooperation with local populations. They must be bringing something to the table surely?
What we see here are left wing social democracy Federation policies versus right wing dictatorship Klingon policies. Strange if right wingers are anti Klingon just because they look funky.
Counterpoint is that the Federation can be viewed as colonial, paying lip service to local cultures as long as they comply with the following 10,000 rules to join our club.
What we see here are left wing social democracy Federation policies versus right wing dictatorship Klingon policies. Strange if right wingers are anti Klingon just because they look funky.
Counterpoint is that the Federation can be viewed as colonial, paying lip service to local cultures as long as they comply with the following 10,000 rules to join our club.
The Klingons are a race that is only interested in themselves and their own strengths and might! They see the Federation as an enemy in the way that they will absorb their culture and change it to suit their own needs and requirements on a ten thousand points admission paper! Similar to how the Federation view the Borg!
JB
JB
Humans do seem to predominate in Starfleet, even by the 24th century, but the Federation council when shown does seemed pretty diverse.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/f/f1/Federation_Council_chamber,_2286.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120415194202&path-prefix=en
Isn't the whole point of the Federation council that it has a representative of each member?
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