Undiscovered Country Dinner Scene

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Charles Phipps, Oct 10, 2017.

  1. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

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    That has always been my exact question when it comes to this version of the TUC script.

    Kor
     
  2. cardinal biggles

    cardinal biggles PANDA MAN Premium Member

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    Totally speculating out my ass here, but my guess would be they'd already failed to get Kirstie Alley back, Kim Cattrall said she didn't want to be Saavik #3, so they knew they'd have to introduce her as a new character but hadn't picked a name yet, so Saavik was still a placeholder name in the script.
     
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  3. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    IIRC, Cattrall herself invented much of the backstory for Valeris - including the name.
     
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  4. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Cattrall suggested the name "Eris" from Greek mythology, since her character stirred up conflict. The filmmakers added the "Val" at the beginning to make the name sound more Vulcan-like.
     
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  5. FormerLurker

    FormerLurker Commodore Commodore

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    IIRC, the novelization even spells the name Val'Eris, probably to give it added similarity to previous female Vulcan names like T'Pring, T'Pau and T'Lar.
     
  6. Ryann866

    Ryann866 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    The way I read the script, Kirk's reaction "Lieutenant...?" is meant to be screen direction for him walking in, saying the line and then notices that it's Saavik. There should be added direction saying something like " REVEAL: Saavik. Kirk reacts to seeing her again".

    Thats how I read it anyway.

    The 25th anniversary special has a clip of some dialogue between Bones and Kerlan during the dinner scene that was cut. Nick Meyer mentions during the dvd commentary that these scene was a tiring shoot, with everyone needing their angles an close ups, and it was red-edited in post.
     
  7. Firebird

    Firebird Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Incorrect. Here's a comparison between the initial fifth draft, dated 12/28/1990, without revisions, with the character intended to be Saavik:

    Now, here's the final revision to this scene, dated 4/1/1991:

    The intent of the final script revisions is for the character to be somebody completely different, even though she's still called Saavik. I think it was more economical for Paramount to leave the character name the same, so they didn't have to spend a bunch of extra money for script paper. They were penny-pinching through a lot of the production on this film, so it wouldn't surprise me.
     
  8. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    As I recall, J.M. Dillard added a backstory about "Valeris" being a Klingon name.
     
  9. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Walrus Premium Member

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    Don't get dressed in the dark. Old Vulcan proverb.
     
  10. David cgc

    David cgc Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Script paper would be the tip of the iceberg. Depending on how late in production they decided it’d be a new character and not a reprisal or third actor playing the same role, there could be scene breakdowns, call sheets, costuming, sets, all sorts of odds and ends that go into making a movie that would need to be changed, and no one would want to lose a day of filming because Cattrall wasn’t told to come in because the plans for that day still said “Saavik” and some poor PA didn’t know that was the same character as “Valeris.” There’d be a point where the easiest thing to do is just to remember to change it whenever anyone was going to say her name out loud and leave everything else.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if there was production materials from “Broken Bow” that said “Jackson Archer” or “Spike Tucker” for the same reason, or “Caretaker“ using the names “Elizabeth” or “Nicole” for Janeway.
     
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  11. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

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    This makes so much more sense. Thanks for the 1990 excerpt.

    Kor
     
  12. Jedman67

    Jedman67 Commodore Commodore

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    Ie, Catrall is Saavik everywhere except in dialog.
     
  13. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    "I beg your pardon?" is not necessarily an expression of confusion. It's also a (slightly old-fashioned) way of expressing indignation.

    Basically, it translates to "Did you just say what I think you said? How dare you?""

    Which is how I've always read Chang's reaction. He's not confused by the reference. He's feigning surprise that Kirk would say something so offensive.

    "Excuse me, did I hear you correctly? Did you actually just compare me to Hitler?"
     
  14. FormerLurker

    FormerLurker Commodore Commodore

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    That was my impression. He's memorized an 800-year-old fictionalized dramatic presentation of a thousand-year-old story about some minor monarch from Earth's past, he's bound to be at least familiar with more recent Earth history.

    I remember Klytus, Ming's right hand man in Flash Gordon, watching Zarkov's memories go by and describing Hitler as "This one had promise". I doubt Chang felt the same way about him, even so.
     
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  15. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    You guys are losing track of the argument. The OP suggested that Chang "knew exactly what he was doing" with that quote. If he knew he was invoking Hitler that reaction doesn't follow. That's my point.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2017
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  16. Vger23

    Vger23 Commodore Commodore

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    Yeah, I think everyone is reading subtlety and context into a scene that is, quite honestly, not very well written, not very well executed, and horribly edited.
     
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  17. danellis

    danellis Commander Red Shirt

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    As someone who's probably "slightly-oldfashioned" that's the way I'd always taken the line. Thinking about it, in the UK that would probably be the most common use of "I beg your pardon." A plain "pardon" would probably be the most common way of asking someone to repeat themselves or explain their meaning.

    dJE
     
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  18. FormerLurker

    FormerLurker Commodore Commodore

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    This. Chang is clearly angered that Kirk would make that kind of insinuation. Either because he knows he's been caught out, or because he underestimated Kirk, and got caught out.
     
  19. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    I do like the dinner scene for this little Azetbur bit.

    AZETBUR: The Federation is no more than a 'homo sapiens' only club.
    She makes a very solid point that Star Trek almost never addresses. Humans are the center of everything, even in the supposed multi-species organization like the Federation. This call out made me happy.
     
  20. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Given that the Klingons are at the head of an EMPIRE which spreads by conquering and enslaving other worlds (which the Federation does not in fact do), Azetbur's got some nerve claiming that the Federation is in any way a "humans-only" club.