Uhura's first name

[Long Syntax]

Well, agreed... but wouldn't it just be a fait accompli at the time of TOS, without the need to label it as such? I'm not saying that people won't value their history and culture, but I'm hoping that we don't still rely on hyphenated descriptions of ourselves in the future -- or maybe I'm just projecting my own hopes here.

That's just my point. Uhura isn't hyphenated. She's not African-American, not "Penny Uhura" -- she's fully African, her name is fully African (aside from that stupid damn feminine suffix), her native language is KiSwahili, etc. What the hell is wrong with that? "Ourselves" isn't just America. "Ourselves" includes everybody, including people who are born in Africa and speak KiSwahili and who only learn English as a second language. That's not "labeling," it's just a baseline identity every bit as much as your own is.

The problem with those "cultural identity doesn't matter" arguments is that the unspoken undercurrent is usually "Everyone should act like my culture rather than somebody else's." Would you be as quick to say cultural identity doesn't matter if you were the one expected to conform to someone else's cultural standards instead of your own? If it were a future where everyone spoke Chinese, say, instead of American English?

Somehow I've started something when my intent was never to get anyone worked up. I only wanted to point out my desire to be past the need to even think about such things. I understand such things are very important in today's context, but I was honestly trying to be optimistic in my outlook about the future.

 

[Long Syntax]

We're talking about places that had no alphabet and no numerals, to say nothing of written language and math, until people from other civilizations (mostly Europeans) came along and gave it to them.

And that's okay. Everybody learned it from somewhere. But in 1966, when our guys were getting ready to land on the moon, I'm pretty sure these territories in Africa didn't have indoor plumbing or electricity except to the extent that Westerners brought it in.

They had slavery before the white man ever got there, and wars aplenty, but they just were not a group of cultures that achieved much advancement apart from what was imported from the outside.

So if, in the 23rd Century, the Swahili-speaking areas are highly advanced societies (and of course they will be, no question), they will have gotten there indirectly. And I'm just saying Uhura might as well be one of us, a direct participant in Western civilization, rather than coming from a place that's more a recipient of the West's intellectual exports.

I would appreciate you supporting your post with factual information, because as it stands the post quoted above is a textbook example of bigotry, ignorance, and outright racism.
Perhaps some research into the topics you blithely skim over might help you readjust the flawed and ignorant comments made above.

I think it might be better to be careful when accusing someone of racism.

 

[Jedi_Master]

We're talking about places that had no alphabet and no numerals, to say nothing of written language and math, until people from other civilizations (mostly Europeans) came along and gave it to them.

And that's okay. Everybody learned it from somewhere. But in 1966, when our guys were getting ready to land on the moon, I'm pretty sure these territories in Africa didn't have indoor plumbing or electricity except to the extent that Westerners brought it in.

They had slavery before the white man ever got there, and wars aplenty, but they just were not a group of cultures that achieved much advancement apart from what was imported from the outside.

So if, in the 23rd Century, the Swahili-speaking areas are highly advanced societies (and of course they will be, no question), they will have gotten there indirectly. And I'm just saying Uhura might as well be one of us, a direct participant in Western civilization, rather than coming from a place that's more a recipient of the West's intellectual exports.

I would appreciate you supporting your post with factual information, because as it stands the post quoted above is a textbook example of bigotry, ignorance, and outright racism.
Perhaps some research into the topics you blithely skim over might help you readjust the flawed and ignorant comments made above.

I think it might be better to be careful when accusing someone of racism.

The guideline is 'attack the post, not the poster.'

 

[Gov Kodos]

We're talking about places that had no alphabet and no numerals, to say nothing of written language and math, until people from other civilizations (mostly Europeans) came along and gave it to them.

And that's okay. Everybody learned it from somewhere. But in 1966, when our guys were getting ready to land on the moon, I'm pretty sure these territories in Africa didn't have indoor plumbing or electricity except to the extent that Westerners brought it in.

They had slavery before the white man ever got there, and wars aplenty, but they just were not a group of cultures that achieved much advancement apart from what was imported from the outside.

So if, in the 23rd Century, the Swahili-speaking areas are highly advanced societies (and of course they will be, no question), they will have gotten there indirectly. And I'm just saying Uhura might as well be one of us, a direct participant in Western civilization, rather than coming from a place that's more a recipient of the West's intellectual exports.

I would appreciate you supporting your post with factual information, because as it stands the post quoted above is a textbook example of bigotry, ignorance, and outright racism.
Perhaps some research into the topics you blithely skim over might help you readjust the flawed and ignorant comments made above.

I think it might be better to be careful when accusing someone of racism.

Then don't make such ethnocentric and racist posts.

 

[FormerLurker]

I like one-name Uhura better than Nyota Uhura.

Why? What's wrong with Nyota? Essentially her name means "Star of Freedom," which is pretty cool.

In all honesty, Penda Uhura, or "Love of Freedom", is even cooler. Especially during the turbulent era of the '60s.

 

[T'Bonz]

Oh ease the hell up. Some of you are arguing over a fake name for a fake character.

If you can't discuss this without getting all hot and bothered, log off and go read a book.

Any crap after this and I start warning. Not in the mood.

 

[BigJake]

As to why it would be better for Uhura to come from Western civilization, my feelings arise from noting what sub-Saharan Africa really brought to the table.

. . .

We're talking about places that had no alphabet and no numerals, to say nothing of written language and math, until people from other civilizations (mostly Europeans) came along and gave it to them.

And that's okay. Everybody learned it from somewhere.

To be specific, the Swahili Coast learned it from Persian and Arab merchants starting in the 2nd and 3rd centuries AD. Ahead of or contemporaneous with a good chunk of Europe.

But somehow any and all cultural achievement has to be credited purely to the "indirect" influence of outsiders. And not only right down to the 20th century, but also indefinitely into the fictional future in which the same region will also continue to be purely a "recipient" of foreign wisdom, when that same rule doesn't apply to anyone in the "West" because of reasons. And it's profoundly necessary to bring up the Indian Ocean slave trade a propos of absolutely nothing at all, also because of reasons.

Sorry, Jedi_Master was absolutely right to call this a very ugly and unfortunate post. And it was in no way necessary or called for.

 

[BillJ]

"Some culture from Africa?" That's very dismissive. Why in the world would it be better for her to be from "our culture" than another? The whole point of her and Sulu's existence as characters is multiculturalism, to show that "our culture" isn't the only one participating in Starfleet.

I love the way you put scare quotes around "our culture" to show your distaste for the very concept.

As to why it would be better for Uhura to come from Western civilization, my feelings arise from noting what sub-Saharan Africa really brought to the table.

We're talking about places that had no alphabet and no numerals, to say nothing of written language and math, until people from other civilizations (mostly Europeans) came along and gave it to them.

And that's okay. Everybody learned it from somewhere. But in 1966, when our guys were getting ready to land on the moon, I'm pretty sure these territories in Africa didn't have indoor plumbing or electricity except to the extent that Westerners brought it in.

They had slavery before the white man ever got there, and wars aplenty, but they just were not a group of cultures that achieved much advancement apart from what was imported from the outside.

So if, in the 23rd Century, the Swahili-speaking areas are highly advanced societies (and of course they will be, no question), they will have gotten there indirectly. And I'm just saying Uhura might as well be one of us, a direct participant in Western civilization, rather than coming from a place that's more a recipient of the West's intellectual exports.

Your knowledge and understanding of history is incomplete... at best.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

A racist would say "Uhura wouldn't be smart enough for Starfleet because of her ancestry."

What I said was, Uhura's ancestors had cultures that impeded technical advancement for a long period of time.

And I preferred her, as a fictional character, to be from the West. That is not racism. It's a preference for the culture that arose out of the West's Enlightenment.

Culture and race are two different things.

 

[BigJake]

A racist would say "Uhura wouldn't be smart enough for Starfleet because of her ancestry."

Actually being able occasionally to recognize the talents of this or that isolated person while still aggressively denigrating and dismissing their ethnicities, peoples, cultures and histories as a whole -- often in quite irrational and ill-informed fashion -- would still be consistent with bigoted content. It's a commonplace pattern, so if someone had the impression that your post contained racist and white supremacist claims (which for my money it does, quite classically so), saying this would not dispel that impression in the slightest, it would just look like a predictable dodge of the issue.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

so if someone had the impression that your post contained racist and white supremacist claims (which for my money it does, quite classically so)

You're responding to something in your head, and not what I wrote. Maybe you need to calm down a little.

 

[Therin of Andor]

And I preferred her, as a fictional character, to be from the West.

And yet the actress who first portrayed her has seemingly always embraced the character's African origins - she was even carrying the book "Uhuru" at her audition.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

And I preferred her, as a fictional character, to be from the West.

And yet the actress who first portrayed her has seemingly always embraced the character's African origins - she was even carrying the book "Uhuru" at her audition.

And the actress was from the Chicago area. Per Wikipedia, she studied in Chicago, New York, and Los Angeles. She was well-equipped to portray a Western person.

My preference, her preference... isn't everybody entitled to view fictional characters as vessels of possibility, rather than something fixed in stone?

 

[Jedi_Master]

But what serves as a basis for an individual's preferences and perceptions is important when others are responding to a public declaration of those preferences.

ETA: to stay somewhat on topic - this is from Memory Alpha

Uhura was proud of her African heritage. In fact, she decorated her personal living quarters aboard the Enterprise with a zebra-skin bedspread, some African sculptures and masks, and wall panels containing African images.

The Memory Alpha article also mentions that the TOS writer's bible says she was from the United States of Africa, whereas the Phase II writer's bible says she was from the African Confederation.

 

[Search4]

Well Penny was just married, so perhaps her last name just changed.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

But what serves as a basis for an individual's preferences and perceptions is important when others are responding to a public declaration of those preferences.

ETA: to stay somewhat on topic - this is from Memory Alpha

Uhura was proud of her African heritage. In fact, she decorated her personal living quarters aboard the Enterprise with a zebra-skin bedspread, some African sculptures and masks, and wall panels containing African images.

The Memory Alpha article also mentions that the TOS writer's bible says she was from the United States of Africa, whereas the Phase II writer's bible says she was from the African Confederation.

Yes, if you go by the on-screen evidence, especially in the third season, Uhura was at least very into her African heritage, and possibly from the continent. And the b.t.s. intent was that she came from Africa. I should have factored that in.

 

[T'Girl]

The Memory Alpha article also mentions that the TOS writer's bible says she was from the United States of Africa, whereas the Phase II writer's bible says she was from the African Confederation.

Couple (or more) possibilities. The United States of Africa later became the African Confederation, subsequent to Uhura's birth.

Or, she could have emigrated from USA to AC at some point.

Or, some of my brother's Army buddies, upon discovering that Washington State had no state income tax, changed their state of record to Washington. Uhura could have "moved" her nationality to the African Confederation by remotely filing some paperwork while in Starfleet. She wouldn't even of had to physically gone there.

Just an idea.

.

 

[Skywalker]

Or they just decided "African Confederation" sounded better than "United States of Africa"--which it does.

 

[T'Bonz]

And I preferred her, as a fictional character, to be from the West. That is not racism.

Actually, it rather sounds like it based on that statement.

This forum is really not the place for this type of sentiment, and I do believe it needs to stop now.

I expect future posts in this thread to be on topic, which is about Uhura's name.

Any complaints may go to my PM box. Make sure that they're valid, because this thread has made me cranky.