Tuvix

[Praetor]

So he was wrong to deny Tuvoc and Neelix's right to exist, but Janeway was right to deny Tuvix's right to exist?

That's the problem. From a moral and ethical standpoint, none of the options are firmly right or wrong. I can't make the choice simply on those standards, and I don't think Janeway or anyone else could either. From a pragmatic standpoint, I can see some justification for either option.

This.

Janeway made a choice as captain. She picked two lives over one. To me, it's really that simple.

 

[Michael]

So he was wrong to deny Tuvoc and Neelix's right to exist, but Janeway was right to deny Tuvix's right to exist?

That's the problem. From a moral and ethical standpoint, none of the options are firmly right or wrong. I can't make the choice simply on those standards, and I don't think Janeway or anyone else could either. From a pragmatic standpoint, I can see some justification for either option.

This.

Janeway made a choice as captain. She picked two lives over one. To me, it's really that simple.

Yes, Janeway made a choice as the captain. But in my opinion she (1.) made the morally wrong choice and (2.) shouldn't really be the one to make this choice in the first place. To be the captain of the Voyager didn't give her the right to decide whether Tuvix should live or die. But again, that's all just my opinion.

 

[Praetor]

That's the problem. From a moral and ethical standpoint, none of the options are firmly right or wrong. I can't make the choice simply on those standards, and I don't think Janeway or anyone else could either. From a pragmatic standpoint, I can see some justification for either option.

This.

Janeway made a choice as captain. She picked two lives over one. To me, it's really that simple.

Yes, Janeway made a choice as the captain. But in my opinion she (1.) made the morally wrong choice and (2.) shouldn't really be the one to make this choice in the first place. To be the captain of the Voyager didn't give her the right to decide whether Tuvix should live or die. But again, that's all just my opinion.

Oh, I think I understand your position, and I'm even inclined to agree with most of it. I hope you can understand mine.

It's just that I also think I understand why the Janeway character would chose what she chose, and I think it's a defensible position. Did she over-reach? Most certainly. The case could be made that she was making a choice for the outcome of the mission - she felt that two separate people could offer the crew more than one blended person. Unfortunately, the episode didn't really go into the dynamics of this decision enough. For my taste, the episode should have been about 25% 'Crap! It's Tuvix' and 75% 'We can restore them, but should we?'

Really, the situation as presented suggested no singularly 'morally correct' outcome, except for having Tuvix decide to willingly go through it. What did the show, or any of the characters, really gain from having Janeway force the procedure? Was it something that the show ever revisited? No.

Their abortion metaphor, if that's what they were going for, really got terribly muddled.

 

[Unicron]

Quite a few people have used Kes's grief, that she wanted Neelix back, as justification.

That's abhorent.

Well, I don't think it should be the sole justification, I agree with you there. But I think the feelings of the crew can't simply be ignored either, because that's equally wrong. It has to weigh into the equation somehow, regardless of the outcome. That's all.

Why the harm done to Tuvok and Neelix should matter less? Because it has already been done! That's why the crew should accept it. To harm Tuvix didn't make the other wrong right. The harm done to Tuvok and Neelix was an accident. Harming Tuvix was done on purpose. It was murder. It's as simple as that.

But the crew discovered a way to undo it. That's the rub. We may have to agree to disagree about Tuvix being murdered, since I don't think he was; I do think it was impossible to make a choice that wouldn't have violated the rights of one group or the other, but that's not the same as murder. Tuvix faced harm because there was no alternative to saving Tuvok and Neelix, not because of any selfishness or malice on the part of his shipmates.

I must say, I'm a bit appalled by the suggestion that Tuvix was basically a hostage taker, denying Tuvok and Neelix the right to live. Man, the guy just wanted to live! He didn't do anything! He was not in the moral right? What the fuck? Why? Because he wanted to live? I don't get that sentiment at all. Also, I'd say that the will to live is a pretty good indication of sentience.

Which is why I don't view Tuvix that way. Wanting to live by itself is not a bad thing, but that doesn't mean the reasons for wanting that are necessarily good for anyone besides you. That's where he falls into a bit of a gray area for me, because the writers didn't really attempt to integrate that desire with his awareness of what and who had been lost.

 

[teya]

Quite a few people have used Kes's grief, that she wanted Neelix back, as justification.

That's abhorent.

Well, I don't think it should be the sole justification, I agree with you there. But I think the feelings of the crew can't simply be ignored either, because that's equally wrong. It has to weigh into the equation somehow, regardless of the outcome. That's all.

It can't. At all.

You can't execute someone just because he's not as liked as someone else.

Again to use the transplant analogy: my brother-in-law is a pain in the ass. He's screwed over every member of the family at one time or another--sometimes very seriously.

Yet we still couldn't decide to make him donate a kidney to his brother, simply because we liked his brother better and wanted him to stay alive.

BTW, this is precisely why objectivity is crucial in medicine.

 

[Anwar]

Did your brother-in-law steal the life energies of two other members of the family without their consent and hoard them, stating that since it was within him he could do what he wanted?

 

[Praetor]

But, teya, Janeway could and did force Tuvix to be disassembled into Tuvok and Neelix. It wasn't right, but it was something she was able to do and something she chose to force, presumably for her own personal reasons which we've been going in circles about for eleven pages.

 

[teya]

But, teya, Janeway could and did force Tuvix to be disassembled into Tuvok and Neelix. It wasn't right, but it was something she was able to do and something she chose to force, presumably for her own personal reasons which we've been going in circles about for eleven pages.

And all I have been arguing is that what she did was immoral.

Tuvix was right. She executed him.

 

[Praetor]

Okay. As long was we're clear.

I don't think Janeway was right, I just don't think Tuvix was completely 'right' either.

 

[Michael]

Oh, I think I understand your position, and I'm even inclined to agree with most of it. I hope you can understand mine.

Oh, I try. I really do. And I don't think I have much of a problem with your opinion. It's just that I ... well, look at it differently. I guess I just have to accept that.

What did the show [...] really gain from having Janeway force the procedure?

Well, the show got two of its main characters back. I think that's real reason why Janeway decided to end Tuvix' existence. The show had to retain its status quo.

Did your brother-in-law steal the life energies of two other members of the family without their consent and hoard them, stating that since it was within him he could do what he wanted?

Tuvix on the other hand stole nothing!

I'm beginning to think I watched a wholly different episode.

EDIT:

I don't think Janeway was right, I just don't think Tuvix was completely 'right' either.

I hope I don't come off snarky, but what exactly did Tuvix 'wrong'?

 

[Praetor]

Oh, I think I understand your position, and I'm even inclined to agree with most of it. I hope you can understand mine.

Oh, I try. I really do. And I don't think I have much of a problem with your opinion. It's just that I ... well, look at it differently. I guess I just have to accept that.

And there's nothing wrong with any of us having different opinions, and no one should take it personally.

What did the show [...] really gain from having Janeway force the procedure?

Well, the show got two of its main characters back. I think that's real reason why Janeway decided to end Tuvix' existence. The show had to retain its status quo.

But why not just have Tuvix sacrifice himself instead of making Janeway look like a villain?

I don't think Janeway was right, I just don't think Tuvix was completely 'right' either.

I hope I don't come off snarky, but what exactly did Tuvix 'wrong'?

Not snarky at all. He didn't do anything wrong - what I meant was that his moral stance wasn't a completely solid one. Tuvok and Neelix each had as much right to live as Tuvix did, so to me, at least based on the numbers, bringing them back was the 'greater good.'

 

[teya]

Did your brother-in-law steal the life energies of two other members of the family without their consent and hoard them, stating that since it was within him he could do what he wanted?

Tuvix stole nothing. He was created in a transporter from the biological material of two humanoids & a plant.

 

[teya]

But why not just have Tuvix sacrifice himself instead of making Janeway look like a villain?

Because that's too easy. It would be boring, preachy story-telling.

I'm curious...

Do you have a problem with Janeway being wrong?

I ask, because I sometimes get that impression from fans, that Janeway can do no wrong. She is perfect, she must be perfect, her decisions are as if handed down from a higher power.

I prefer my heroes flawed, myself.

 

[Praetor]

But why not just have Tuvix sacrifice himself instead of making Janeway look like a villain?

Because that's too easy. It would be boring, preachy story-telling.

Fair enough. They did manage to keep us talking about it twelve years and eleven thread pages later.

I'm curious...

Do you have a problem with Janeway being wrong?

I ask, because I sometimes get that impression from fans, that Janeway can do no wrong. She is perfect, she must be perfect, her decisions are as if handed down from a higher power.

I prefer my heroes flawed, myself.

Ye gods, no.

Janeway made plenty of mistakes, even when she felt she was in the right. Some of them she even later admitted. Like you, I prefer a flawed and therefore more realistic hero (or heroine.) It's the stuff good drama is made of.

I just happen to think she made the more pragmatic choice here.

 

[teya]

I just happen to think she made the more pragmatic choice here.

Oh, I absolutely think she made the more pragmatic choice.

I just think it was immoral.

 

[Praetor]

Oh.

So we actually pretty much agree then?

I can still see bringing back two lives at the cost of one as in some ways the more 'moral' choice. That may make me a bad person.

 

[bigdaddy]

In the end, I thought Janeway handled it badly all around.

Well that's her character, to handle everything badly.

I enjoy the episode for what it is. I would have actually liked it better if they kept Tuvix instead.

 

[teya]

Oh.

So we actually pretty much agree then?

I can still see bringing back two lives at the cost of one as in some ways the more 'moral' choice. That may make me a bad person.

I just can't get around the transplant analogy.

In one of the many debates on this episode over the years, someone said that *of course* he would kill to keep a loved one alive, and that *anyone* would. This sounds all romantic and everything, till you really think about it. Of course, none of us would. We might, in our darkest moments, *think* about it, but I don't think anyone would if they were truly faced with the option.

Heck, I *was* faced with the option of attempting to coerce my brother-in-law, and I couldn't do that. Nor could my sweetie.

 

[Praetor]

Well, at least I think we can agree to disagree. I understand where you're coming from, and hopefully you understand where I'm coming from.

 

[Anwar]

Did your brother-in-law steal the life energies of two other members of the family without their consent and hoard them, stating that since it was within him he could do what he wanted?

Tuvix stole nothing. He was created in a transporter from the biological material of two humanoids & a plant.

And he did everything to make sure what was taken from them against their will was not returned to them, which is the same as theft. His life didn't really belong to him as much as a freak accident took it from others and gave it to him, and then he wanted to make sure that what was taken was not restored because he didn't care about either of them.

As for Janeway being "wrong" all the time, this goes back to what I said before: Ransom gets all the sympathy for doing evil things, yet Janeway gets all-around hatred for doing things nowhere NEAR as bad as his. Make up your minds guys, you can't like one guy for being REALLY bad and yet hate another for not being squeeky clean while still being good.