Tuvix

[Michael]

Yes, he wanted to continue living at the expense of his parents, even though he knew the crew was uncomfortable with that and even though it was agreed that the possibility of restoring them would be given as much attention as they could. Is this an understandable reaction for Tuvix? Certainly. I can easily see where he was coming from, but that doesn't change my view. Kes made it clear to Tuvix that, given the choice, she didn't want him. She wanted Neelix. She didn't want him claiming to speak for Neelix, because he wasn't. He couldn't fill that role, or Tuvok's, so it shouldn't be treated as a given that Tuvix's survival is more important than theirs.

I think my problem is that I don't get what Kes' feelings have to do with determing whether they should kill Tuvix or not. How does the crew's uncomfortableness with Tuvix measure into it? Why does Tuvix need to fill any role to be worthy enough to live? So he wasn't a better cook and he wasn't a better security chief than Neelix and Tuvok. It's that what counts here; his worth to the crew of the Voyager? I'd say it's them who were selfish then.

Just for the sake of argument, let's assume Tuvix would not have been the valuable crewmember he was. Let's assume the accident would have produced a mentally handicapped individual who couldn't really do anything and who would have no worth to the crew whatsoever. Would that mean his live was any less important than Neelix' and Tuvok's?

Of course not! He had the right to live. It didn't really matter one tiny bit what the crew wanted. If you ask me, it didn't even matter what Neelix and Tuvok wanted. They were not there. Tuvix was there. They had to kill Tuvix to get Neelix and Tuvok back.

Kirk would have had Torres temporarily modify the transporter system to be able to record Tuvix's pattern. Then, they split Tuvix into Tuvoc and Neelix, and then make another copy of Tuvix. Then Tuvix meets his "parents", creeps them out (even Tuvoc), and decides to leave Voyager. So they give him a shuttle and everyone is happy, except for the shuttlecraft building team in engineering.

Actually that sounds more like the technobabbly cop-out TNG or Voyager would have pulled of.

As for the morality of the situation, splitting Tuvix was just plain wrong. No getting around it, it was just wrong. He was a sentient being who did not want to die. He was a new life form, and had a right to continue existing. His execution was a violation of the Prime Directive, as well as his own rights as an individual. Period. Saying it was selfish for Tuvix to remain himself is irrelevant. It was even more selfish for Janeway to split him apart again against his will.

Either Tuvix was created by devine design, or he was an accident. If you take out the divine context, all life is an accident. A random chance. It is only by random chance that humanity evolved, random chance they survived, random chance that the right combination of DNA created Janeway. All that accidental randomness does NOT negate her right to exist. In a broader scope, EVERYONE is a random accident.

I think all of that is spot-on, USS Renegade.

The bad storytelling part of this episode is what bugs me the most. This SHOULD have been a 2 parter, there SHOULD have been more reaction from the crew. Especially since it was early in the series and there was still a bit of divisiveness among the Maquis. SOMEONE other than the doctor should have said "This is just wrong!". Especially Chakotay. As XO it was his JOB to say "This is just wrong!". This was a great episode, but it could have easily been one of the greatest Sci-Fi stories ever written. It's a shame it wasn't.

Again, that's pretty much how I look at it, too. It's a great concept that's somewhat halfheartedly realized. I don't know if it necessarily had to be a two-parter, but the idea that someone else than Janeway – someone who would have actually been punished afterwards – would kill Tuvix sounds more believable to me than what we got.

So it's wrong to save two crewmembers just because a third one who really isn't a crewmember doesn't think they were worth saving? The lives Tuvok and Neelix had were irrelevant because Tuvix said so?

Were did you get the impression that Tuvix thought Tuvok and Neelix were not worth saving? No one life is more worth than the other. Do you honestly imply that you can ask a man to sacrifice his own life for two others? You make it sound like he was a selfish coward when all he wanted was to live.

And on another note, do you really think Tuvix' opinion would have mattered more if he was a real crewmember? What does one thing has to do with the other? And why do you think he wasn't a crewmember in the first place?

... he never once gave much thought to either of them anyways.

Why do you think so? I'd say the opposite is true. Since he essentially was both of them he must have known pretty well how they felt.

No clear answer here, unless you happen to be a Janeway hater who thinks every choice she made was the wrong one.

I think the answer was pretty clear. Janeway had no right whatsoever to end Tuvix' existence – to kill him. Tuvok and Neelix lived on through Tuvix. It's just that that wasn't enough for the crew of the Voyager.

But to say that I'm a 'Janeway hater' for thinking so is pretty presumptuous. I'm far away from that. I like her character, I really do. I just think that there are episodes where her character is ill-conceived.

 

[Miss Chicken]

Well, I hate to say it, but if it the choice was Tuvix or Tuvok and Neelix, or in other words one life to 'save' or two lives to 'save,' with no possibility of saving all three, I'd pick Tuvok and Neelix simply on the basis of 2>1. In that regard, I agree with Janeway. Truly the Kobayashi Maru.

I could save the lives of several people if I killed you and used you for organ donation but in our society that would be a serious crime and rightly so. We are not even allowed to take one kidney from you against you will even though you could survive without that kidney.

Janeway killing Tuvix is a serious crime no matter how many were 'saved' by her actions. Tuvix was a being in his own right and his rights were equal to those of anyone else so, unless he volunteered, ending his existence is murder.

 

[USS Renegade]

So it's wrong to save two crewmembers just because a third one who really isn't a crewmember doesn't think they were worth saving? The lives Tuvok and Neelix had were irrelevant because Tuvix said so? She was condeming Tuvok and Neelix to death by letting him live, and he never once gave much thought to either of them anyways.

No clear answer here, unless you happen to be a Janeway hater who thinks every choice she made was the wrong one.

Here is my one big problem with this concept. Tuvoc and Neelix weren't exactly dead. Their knowledge still existed, their memory still existed, their skills still existed. They were not killed, but transformed.

He was LITERALLY made of Tuvoc and Neelix! You say he never gave much thought to either of them, but THEY were not thinking of their former selves.

Since the episode was never revisited, we will never know, but who is to say that Tuvoc and Neelix didn't REGRET the split? They very well could have spent the rest of their lives remembering what they WERE and could NEVER be again, and feeling less for it. Tuvoc haunted by the memory of having the logic to remain in control and still be able to FEEL. Neelix never able to get over the memory of the strength and intelligence he no longer possesed. Never even able to voice their opinion because their Captain had killed the best person they had ever been to save them. Because they would have to ask each other to bond again. Even if Tuvoc wanted that, he would NEVER ask it, or admit his desire. Even if Neelix wanted it, he would NEVER ask that proud and solemn Vulcan. It could be a Buffy Summers situation, for all we know. Her friends "saved" her... By ripping her soul out of heaven.

In that situation, the ONLY person with the right to speak for Tuvoc and Neelix was Tuvix, and his voice was ignored and then silenced.

Kirk would have had Torres temporarily modify the transporter system to be able to record Tuvix's pattern. Then, they split Tuvix into Tuvoc and Neelix, and then make another copy of Tuvix. Then Tuvix meets his "parents", creeps them out (even Tuvoc), and decides to leave Voyager. So they give him a shuttle and everyone is happy, except for the shuttlecraft building team in engineering.

Actually that sounds more like the technobabbly cop-out TNG or Voyager would have pulled of.

It's not a cop-out though. It is a viable option to restore two crew members WITHOUT destroying a life. It has been stated in Trek that the transporters are built to prevent deliberate duplication of people. It is POSSIBLE to do it, but unethical. In this situation, I think it would be ethical.

The point was, though, not that this is HOW the story should have been told. It was simply to illustrate the fact that there WERE more than two options in this scenario. There was no time frame in which the split needed to be done. A superior captain would have looked for those options. That is why it was a Voyager story and not a TOS story. This was a Kobiyashi Maru. Kirk would have realized he could have cheated this situation to win it. Janeway just accepted that losses would be taken and took the losses most acceptable to her.

Again, that is why Janeway is my favorite captain. She is flawed.

 

[Michael]

I could save the lives of several people if I killed you and used you for organ donation but in our society that would be a serious crime and rightly so. We are not even allowed to take one kidney from you against you will even though you could survive without that kidney.

Janeway killing Tuvix is a serious crime no matter how many were 'saved' by her actions. Tuvix was a being in his own right and his rights were equal to those of anyone else so, unless he volunteered, ending his existence is murder.

Very good analogy, Miss Chicken.

Actually that sounds more like the technobabbly cop-out TNG or Voyager would have pulled of.

It's not a cop-out though. It is a viable option to restore two crew members WITHOUT destroying a life.

Yeah, and that's exactly why it is a cop-out. They'd use technology to save all three of them. They have their cake and eat it, too. It's just like Endgame; they get home, destroy the Borg and save everyone. No sacrifices whatsoever.

 

[Anwar]

Tuvok and Neelix were not "alive" though Tuvix, he simply had access to their memories. For all intents and purposes they were trapped within him in a union neither consented to and no one really asked either of them what they wanted (and Tuvix really can't be considered the one to ask since he was a third entity resulting from the merger, with neither of the original people able to speak through him). I would assume in that situation they would want their lives back instead of remaining in a state of nonexistence/trapped for the rest of Tuvix's life while he used their memories to basically say "to hell with that!" to everyone who dared try and want their two friends and crewmembers back.

So yeah, it's more than "She's a murderer!". She'd be a murderer if she did nothing and just left them trapped like that because she'd have effectively killed both Tuvok and Neelix because the third entity was willing to leave them dead. The whole crew would have been murderers for not doing anything.

No clear cut answer to this question.

 

[Praetor]

Well, I hate to say it, but if it the choice was Tuvix or Tuvok and Neelix, or in other words one life to 'save' or two lives to 'save,' with no possibility of saving all three, I'd pick Tuvok and Neelix simply on the basis of 2>1. In that regard, I agree with Janeway. Truly the Kobayashi Maru.

I could save the lives of several people if I killed you and used you for organ donation but in our society that would be a serious crime and rightly so. We are not even allowed to take one kidney from you against you will even though you could survive without that kidney.

Janeway killing Tuvix is a serious crime no matter how many were 'saved' by her actions. Tuvix was a being in his own right and his rights were equal to those of anyone else so, unless he volunteered, ending his existence is murder.

By that logic, one might argue that the transporter operator accidentally murdered Neelix and Tuvok to make Tuvix. They may have been 'alive' in the sense that they were both fused into Tuvix, but each person was no longer an individual living person.

What I'm basically saying is that there isn't a 'right' decision here, and ultimately choosing two people over one is the more pragmatic choice.

I also don't understand why Kes's, or anyone's, personal feelings were relevant to the equation.

 

[Miss Chicken]

You cannot accidently murder someone, you can only accidently kill them.

If the transporter operator had been negligent then he would be guilty of manslaughter at the most. If the accident was not his fault then it isn't even that.

However Janeway's actions were premeditated and as Tuvix was a sentient being it can only be murdered especially as it was done against Tuvix'x will.

 

[Praetor]

You've got me on the 'accidental murder' bit. That's what I get for trying to multi-task.

However, do we know for sure that Tuvix was sentient? And if he is, why does one person's sentience supersede that of two people? Tuvix's own argument for existence was that Tuvok and Neelix still existed within him, so by his own definition they weren't 'dead.'

 

[Unicron]

I think my problem is that I don't get what Kes' feelings have to do with determing whether they should kill Tuvix or not. How does the crew's uncomfortableness with Tuvix measure into it? Why does Tuvix need to fill any role to be worthy enough to live? So he wasn't a better cook and he wasn't a better security chief than Neelix and Tuvok. It's that what counts here; his worth to the crew of the Voyager? I'd say it's them who were selfish then.

Kes and Neelix were romantically involved long before they joined Voyager. Tuvok had a close friendship with Janeway from the time she was a young officer. Now, whether or not the crew (or rather Janeway, with the crew's support) chose to support Tuvix' right to continue living or not, how can anyone say those feelings weren't relevant? The crew lost two people they cared about, and that they were merged into a new being doesn't change that. Again, that's not to belittle Tuvix's rights, but this is not a clear cut situation for either point of view.

Just for the sake of argument, let's assume Tuvix would not have been the valuable crewmember he was. Let's assume the accident would have produced a mentally handicapped individual who couldn't really do anything and who would have no worth to the crew whatsoever. Would that mean his live was any less important than Neelix' and Tuvok's?

If he was this handicapped, why would his right to life be considered more valuable than that of the lost crewmembers? To me, the whole problem is that Tuvix's value was relative (in a manner of speaking). That he claimed to be able to speak for either of his "parents" has to be taken with some grain of salt, especially late in the story, simply because there's no way to know if it's true. As I said before, Tuvix knew ahead of time that he might be called upon to give up his life to save two others, and I think when that started to became a real possibility he became genuinely afraid. Maybe that was more of Neelix, who was a survivalist, I dunno. But I'll admit that if I were in his place and was that concerned about my survival, it's the type of thing I might say whether I truly meant it or not.

It didn't really matter one tiny bit what the crew wanted. If you ask me, it didn't even matter what Neelix and Tuvok wanted. They were not there. Tuvix was there. They had to kill Tuvix to get Neelix and Tuvok back.

If you don't consider what the crew thinks, then you shouldn't judge Janeway actions as being wrong because that's her job (No offense ). That's what being captain means. You have to consider what matters to everyone, not just one individual. If you have to sacrifice your best friend and fellow officer to save the rest of the crew, then that doesn't automatically make you selfish or immoral.

You're right that getting them back meant Tuvix had to die, and that is a very unfortunate thing to have to choose. I'd certainly never want to make such a choice, but again it didn't come out of the blue or to spite Tuvix or anything. Since Neelix and Tuvok didn't choose to be merged, and since it was said later they did recall their life as Tuvix, it's hard to argue that their rights and the crew's relationships didn't matter. They did matter, and were just as important as the possibility of letting Tuvix continue his life.

Were did you get the impression that Tuvix thought Tuvok and Neelix were not worth saving? No one life is more worth than the other. Do you honestly imply that you can ask a man to sacrifice his own life for two others? You make it sound like he was a selfish coward when all he wanted was to live.

To answer this, I'll reiterate my opinion again. I know I've sounded kind of harsh on Tuvix, and I hope I haven't seemed too unclear. As I've said, there's no easy solution to this problem. Tuvix was not a selfish coward for wanting to live. But I think perhaps he had gotten used to the possibility that his existence was a given, not primarily due to a malfunction, and he naturally feared the possibility of giving that up, even if it meant saving the two people "lost" to make him. Again, that's a perfectly sane and natural reaction. But I think it bothered Tuvix enough that he ultimately ignored how his existence made Kes and others feel, and the fact that no matter how unique and capable he was, the crew couldn't simply look at him without being reminded of Tuvok or Neelix. It wasn't so simple for them to ignore what had been lost, regardless of whatever Tuvix embodied on his own. And that's why I can't ignore them either. When the choice came down to them or Tuvix, he put himself first.

I think the answer was pretty clear. Janeway had no right whatsoever to end Tuvix' existence – to kill him. Tuvok and Neelix lived on through Tuvix. It's just that that wasn't enough for the crew of the Voyager.

I think this is the whole crux of the problem, really. The claim that they lived on in Tuvix is ultimately speculation, and goes against the claim that he deserved to live because they were effectively dead. You can argue for one or the other, but I'm not sure you can really do both. Janeway had to do what was best for the whole crew, with or without Tuvix. She made a harsh choice that ended one life and restored two.

 

[USS Renegade]

Actually that sounds more like the technobabbly cop-out TNG or Voyager would have pulled of.

It's not a cop-out though. It is a viable option to restore two crew members WITHOUT destroying a life.

Yeah, and that's exactly why it is a cop-out. They'd use technology to save all three of them. They have their cake and eat it, too. It's just like Endgame; they get home, destroy the Borg and save everyone. No sacrifices whatsoever.

It may be a cop-out from a WRITING perspective, but it still illustrates that based on previously referenced technobabble there was a THIRD solution that would have left EVERYONE alive that Janeway never even looked for. She was an inferior Captain.

If you don't consider what the crew thinks, then you shouldn't judge Janeway actions as being wrong because that's her job (No offense ). That's what being captain means. You have to consider what matters to everyone, not just one individual. If you have to sacrifice your best friend and fellow officer to save the rest of the crew, then that doesn't automatically make you selfish or immoral.

Being the captain means you make decisions for the crew. Correct. Being the Captain of the starship Voyager means you make decisions for the crew of the starship Voyager.

I don't recall Tuvix joining starfleet. I don't recall Tuvix bringing his ship on board Voyager and deciding to stay. I'm okay with Janeway making decisions for Seven of Nine, she was a Federation citizen, kidnapped, displaced, and unable to make her own rational decisions. I'm okay with Janeway making decisions for Naomi Wildman, since Naomi's mother is under her command. Tuvix was NOT a citizen of the United Federation of Planets, and was NOT a member of Starfleet. He was a new and unique sentient life form held prisioner from the moment of his creation and then executed against his will. On top of EVERYTHING else, I don't believe that Janeway had the authority to make that decision.

 

[Unicron]

Didn't Tuvix continue to wear Tuvok's Starfleet uniform and continue to serve in the role of tactical officer? Even if he hadn't done that, he would still be a separate member of the crew for the duration of his life. Thus the choice ultimately still rests with Janeway, his commanding officer. She had the same authority over Tuvix as she had over Kes and Neelix, who were not Starfleet and not Federation citizens. Those facts didn't matter so long as they were part of her crew. While she ultimately chose to go against his personal wishes, I don't think it'd be accurate to say Tuvix was "imprisoned" or mistreated.

 

[USS Renegade]

Didn't Tuvix continue to wear Tuvok's Starfleet uniform and continue to serve in the role of tactical officer? Even if he hadn't done that, he would still be a separate member of the crew for the duration of his life. Thus the choice ultimately still rests with Janeway, his commanding officer. She had the same authority over Tuvix as she had over Kes and Neelix, who were not Starfleet and not Federation citizens. Those facts didn't matter so long as they were part of her crew. While she ultimately chose to go against his personal wishes, I don't think it'd be accurate to say Tuvix was "imprisoned" or mistreated.

He continued to wear the uniform. Did that make the impersonators from "Live Fast and Prosper" actual Starfleet officers? He wasn't allowed full access to the ship's tactical systems either. He continued to wear the uniform because he wanted to start a new life on Voyager, not so he could die. If a ten year old boy put's on his father's military uniform does that give an Army general the right to order him to die for his country? And most importantly, if wearing that uniform meant that HE should be willing to give his life it should also mean that the rest of the crew, and the captain most of all, should be willing to DEFEND his life!

I also don't hold that Janeway had the same authority over Tuvix as she did over Neelix and Kes. Neelix and Kes both CHOSE to be on Voyager. Tuvix was effectively BORN there. He was trying to fit in. Yes, he initially agreed to submit to being split apart if the option became available. How old was he when he agreed to this? ONE DAY old? When I was five I promised my mother that I would never grow up and leave home. Do you think I was in the wrong for moving out when I became an adult? Was that selfish of me? I mean, I did promise. WHEN I WAS FIVE YEARS OLD! While Tuvix did NOT have the mind of a child, he was still childlike in the fact that he did not know who he was or what he was capable of. He did not know himself.

As for not being a captive, imagine that on his first day of his creation that Tuvix had said "You know, I think I want to start out my new life somewhere else. Half of me is from the Delta Quadrant and I want to stay here. I'm just gonna go fire up Neelix's ship and leave. Do a little exploring of my own. Good luck getting back to earth Captain." Do you think it would be accurate to say that Janeway would have said "Oh, sure, go ahead. Happy travels!". I think not. He was not going anywhere until Janeway knew for certain if the process could be reversed, and once she found out it could be he was not going anywhere but the proverbial gallows.

 

[Anwar]

...Which doesn't change that he was pretty much a hostage taker (unintentional or not) for Tuvok and Neelix, denying their right to existence. They weren't deader than dead, and he was refusing everyone else the right to want them back. He was hardly in the moral right here, he was "Well, they can be brought back but I like living even though it means they can't so too bad".

 

[USS Renegade]

...Which doesn't change that he was pretty much a hostage taker (unintentional or not) for Tuvok and Neelix, denying their right to existence. They weren't deader than dead, and he was refusing everyone else the right to want them back. He was hardly in the moral right here, he was "Well, they can be brought back but I like living even though it means they can't so too bad".

So he was wrong to deny Tuvoc and Neelix's right to exist, but Janeway was right to deny Tuvix's right to exist?

Simply wanting to survive does not put him in the moral wrong. Tuvix refusing the split would not have done harm to Tuvoc and Neelix, the harm was already done. Restoring Tuvoc and Neelix, on the other hand, DID do harm to Tuvix.

Plus, you act like he is a villian for having a survival instinct. I certainly cannot agree with that.

He also wasn't refusing the crew's right to want them back. They have the right to WANT. They didn't have the right to force them back at the expense of another living beings existence.

And true, they were not "deader than dead". They were CHANGED. Janeway could STILL go to Tuvix and reminisce about the old days in Starfleet. Kes could STILL go to Tuvix and reminisce about adventuring together in his ship. They were not lost, but transformed. I can't see what is morally correct about killing a man to save two men who, by your own admission, are not really dead. When it was over however, Tuvix was, really, dead.

Look at this analogy. A guy goes to the hospital for an appendectomy. The charts get switched and he is accidentally given a sex change operation. After a while she decides she likes being a woman more than she liked being a man. Just because her family wants her back the way she was does not give them the right to force a reversal of the operation against her will.

Plus, I just don't see how Tuvix is supposed to be obligated to give up his life for what he does NOT see as the greater good. I mean, bad things happen. It is just part of life.

 

[teya]

You've got me on the 'accidental murder' bit. That's what I get for trying to multi-task.

However, do we know for sure that Tuvix was sentient?

He was most obviously self-aware.

And he had a personality of his own--Janeway said so in her logs.

 

[teya]

I think my problem is that I don't get what Kes' feelings have to do with determing whether they should kill Tuvix or not. How does the crew's uncomfortableness with Tuvix measure into it? Why does Tuvix need to fill any role to be worthy enough to live? So he wasn't a better cook and he wasn't a better security chief than Neelix and Tuvok. It's that what counts here; his worth to the crew of the Voyager? I'd say it's them who were selfish then.

Kes and Neelix were romantically involved long before they joined Voyager. Tuvok had a close friendship with Janeway from the time she was a young officer. Now, whether or not the crew (or rather Janeway, with the crew's support) chose to support Tuvix' right to continue living or not, how can anyone say those feelings weren't relevant? The crew lost two people they cared about, and that they were merged into a new being doesn't change that. Again, that's not to belittle Tuvix's rights, but this is not a clear cut situation for either point of view.

I had an 11-year relationship with my SO.

That didn't give me the right to kill someone to get a kidney for him.

The *only* thing that we are guaranteed when we're born is that we'll die. And when people die, the survivors grieve. Preventing sorrow doesn't give you the right to kill.

 

[Unicron]

So he was wrong to deny Tuvoc and Neelix's right to exist, but Janeway was right to deny Tuvix's right to exist?

That's the problem. From a moral and ethical standpoint, none of the options are firmly right or wrong. I can't make the choice simply on those standards, and I don't think Janeway or anyone else could either. From a pragmatic standpoint, I can see some justification for either option.

Simply wanting to survive does not put him in the moral wrong. Tuvix refusing the split would not have done harm to Tuvoc and Neelix, the harm was already done. Restoring Tuvoc and Neelix, on the other hand, DID do harm to Tuvix.

So, why should this harm done to Tuvok and Neelix matter less and why should the crew accept that? That's what I've been trying to ask.

And true, they were not "deader than dead". They were CHANGED. Janeway could STILL go to Tuvix and reminisce about the old days in Starfleet. Kes could STILL go to Tuvix and reminisce about adventuring together in his ship. They were not lost, but transformed. I can't see what is morally correct about killing a man to save two men who, by your own admission, are not really dead. When it was over however, Tuvix was, really, dead.

Okay, that's fair enough. Let's spin it around: Tuvix wasn't killed by Janeway's choice, merely transformed back into two separate individuals who retained memories of their time as Tuvix. If his right to survive is to be based on part on his "parents" surviving in this changed form, why assume that Tuvix couldn't have survived in them the same way?

Plus, I just don't see how Tuvix is supposed to be obligated to give up his life for what he does NOT see as the greater good. I mean, bad things happen. It is just part of life.

I was rereading Jammer's review the other night, and I kind of wonder if the characters didn't suffer some from the writers. I agree with him that one problem with the ep is how the major question - Tuvix's survival - could have been a running theme throughout the ep, but it isn't really brought up until the very end. As a result, Tuvix is extremely adamant about his survival, and never even hints that his sacrifice might do good to the crew (if not himself). He's easily capable of integrating with the crew to a degree, but he can't see (or won't see) how they might not see his existence as the better of two bad options? For someone possessing Tuvok's logical mind, that seems a little odd to me. By the same token, Janeway's decision seems a little more biased than it probably should because Kes comes to see her just before the "cure" is discovered.

I dunno. Jammer mentions that UPN apparently wasn't entirely comfortable with this part of the story either, and wanted at one point ot have an ending where Tuvix was more willing to sacrifice himself. Michael Piller fought to have it done against his will because he felt it would make the story more dramatic, but I do wonder how an alternate ending would have worked out. Even if Tuvix had been more willing to make that sacrifice, it could still be written in a way to leave us and the crew wondering about his existence.

The *only* thing that we are guaranteed when we're born is that we'll die. And when people die, the survivors grieve. Preventing sorrow doesn't give you the right to kill.

You're right, it doesn't. But that's not why Janeway made the choice she did. She made it to undo the harm, so to speak, that had been done to two crewmembers through an accident. To have ignored all possibility of undoing that would have been as unethical in my view as simply pulling Tuvix into the transporter and pulling the switch the moment the solution was given.

 

[teya]

The *only* thing that we are guaranteed when we're born is that we'll die. And when people die, the survivors grieve. Preventing sorrow doesn't give you the right to kill.

You're right, it doesn't. But that's not why Janeway made the choice she did.

Quite a few people have used Kes's grief, that she wanted Neelix back, as justification.

That's abhorent.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

"Here is my one big problem with this concept. Tuvoc and Neelix weren't exactly dead. Their knowledge still existed, their memory still existed, their skills still existed. They were not killed, but transformed."

Using that logic you can say that Tuvix wasn't truly dead either after he was split. So what's the problem?

 

[Michael]

Simply wanting to survive does not put him in the moral wrong. Tuvix refusing the split would not have done harm to Tuvoc and Neelix, the harm was already done. Restoring Tuvoc and Neelix, on the other hand, DID do harm to Tuvix.

So, why should this harm done to Tuvok and Neelix matter less and why should the crew accept that? That's what I've been trying to ask.

Why the harm done to Tuvok and Neelix should matter less? Because it has already been done! That's why the crew should accept it. To harm Tuvix didn't make the other wrong right. The harm done to Tuvok and Neelix was an accident. Harming Tuvix was done on purpose. It was murder. It's as simple as that.

I must say, I'm a bit appalled by the suggestion that Tuvix was basically a hostage taker, denying Tuvok and Neelix the right to live. Man, the guy just wanted to live! He didn't do anything! He was not in the moral right? What the fuck? Why? Because he wanted to live? I don't get that sentiment at all. Also, I'd say that the will to live is a pretty good indication of sentience.