Tuvix

[Kes2370]

The person I felt more sorry for was Kes, yes ok Janeway did comit murder when she makes her choice to seperate tuvix. but she was only thinking of her two crew members who's voices we/she couldnt hear, she had to make a guess in what they (Tuvok and Neelix) wanted.

 

[Kes2370]

Such an interesting episode. Incredibly emotionally disturbing but fabulously written.

Tuvix was creepy, but he took the best qualities from Tuvok and Neelix and that's why he was so lovable.

Janeway murdered a sentient being.

Technically Tuvix did the murdering when he came to life. Sure he became sentient, but Janeway was trying to get her crew members back.

No...Murder requires an action. Tuvix took no action to terminate the lives of Tuvok or Neelix. That's comepletely irrational. You could blame babies for the Death of their mothers at birth.

The Transporter was the cause of their demise not Tuvix who had not yet existed yet. Causality much be observed.

ha id never thought about that.

 

[Thomas.B]

What if there was a transporter malfunction and a Democratic were mixed with a Republican....you'd have a guy who immediately went bankrupt and refused to do anything about it. badum-bum.

Neeix : A awful ...how can you be eating that.
Kes : I can't stop eating it. I've had six bowls! And the reason it tastes so strange, I've put a container of nitrogenated soil in it.
Neeix : Dirt? You're eating dirt?

It's funny to see this because I saw this episode just yesterday.

 

[Saquist]

The idea that *Tuvix* murdered Tuvok and Neelix is just ludicrous. He wasn't even alive when that happened. The transporter malfunction killed Tuvok and Neelix. And that's, honestly, a risk they all take by using the transporter.

Apart from that, I wouldn't have had a problem with Janeway's decision, had they placed Tuvix into a stasis chamber until they found a solution. But they allowed him to live, to grow his own personality and not just remain the sum of Tuvok and Neelix, to integrate into the crew, and that's when killing Tuvix became more than just fixing the problem but murder of an innocent lifeform for selfish reasons.

The only problem I have with that is made obvious by Spock who made a sacrifice to save hundreds at the cost of one. While it was his life to give...Janeway was clearly in the unenviable position to have to chose. She chose two over the one, the status quo.....

I'm not saying it was the right or wrong choice. I know I couldn't have made it....Really I think the choice belonged to people like Kes and Tuvok's family...medically speaking they had a right to the litteral biology made up Tuvik.

It's difficult, I can't call Janeway a murder...it's science fiction. It's situation we'll never ever encounter in real life and right now there are no rules to describe the choice.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Imagine if the two people smooshed into one were Samantha Wildman and Tom Paris. Then, when Janeway refuses to separate Samtom in the transporter, she'd have to face the motherless Naomi Wildman and the fiance-less B'Elanna Torres every day - not to mention Samantha's husband and Admiral Paris when she arrived home.

Janeway lucked out that Tuvok's Vulcan family would have accepted the logic of the situation and Neelix was an orphan who was already far removed from his own species, and estranged from Kes.

 

[Saquist]

How many variations of that are there?

Cholanna
Kesway
Kimvok

LOL....of this fun!

 

[Gary7]

The thing is... we all secretly hope that we'll find an argument, one that sticks, which puts the whole matter to rest. So far, it doesn't appear to have happened. Thus, the threads continue.

Technically Tuvix did the murdering when he came to life. Sure he became sentient, but Janeway was trying to get her crew members back.

This makes absolutely no sense. None at all. How can a being that didn't exist when two other beings died be responsible for their murder? That's like charging an infant with murder because the mother died during child birth.

Bill, I couldn't have said it better. I hope this is clear to Lily. Tuvix was an accident. He as the result is NOT the culprit. He is the result, the aftermath. It is impossible to say he is the cause. Certainly, it wasn't even a willful act. He didn't even know who he was once he arrived on the transporter pad.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Time moves pretty fast. Wait, that's a Bueller line.


The rightful condition was to have Neelix and Tuvok back again. But at what risk? According to the doctor, the odds were not good. So, it could have very likely resulted in Tuvix dead as well. Based on this, Tuvix should have lived. It is better to have this merged version of Tuvok and Neelix, who live on through Tuvix, rather than everyone concerned ending up dead. But no... Janeway felt it was her duty to do whatever it takes to bring back Neelix and Tuvok, no matter the cost. This was irrational. It was dangerous. It was outright murder.

I appreciate the writers bringing up this contentious issue. But what they did was to hatchet Janeway's character. Yes, she had been erratic at times and had made some bad decisions. But in this case, the "logic" she used was selfish. It was unbecoming of a Starfleet captain. I was really surprised that more of the crew wasn't against the reversion of Tuvix. But I guess they too wanted Tuvok and Neelix back, even with the risks. That wasn't right. Really.

I would have preferred that the episode played out a little differently. That the risks were negligible. Tuvix could be converted back to Tuvok and Neelix with a very high chance for success. Then it would have faced the issue square on. Hey--Tuvix was an accident and they need Tuvok and Neelix back. It's their right to live. But you know... given the transporter technology, they really could have "copied" him and then brought back Neelix and Tuvok. Tuvix would be along for the ride until he dies some unanticipated death a few episodes later. I'd have preferred this above all other options.

 

[tighr]

Yes, I'm necromancing a thread rather than create a new one.

There is precedent for the transporter being used to duplicate an individual (Will and Tom Riker). And obviously, they were able to figure out a way to reverse the process of symbiogenesis. If something like that can happen via accident, surely it can be replicated on purpose.

So, clearly, what should have happened was to utilize the medical transporter to duplicate Tuvix, and during the rematerialization phase split one of the Tuvix' (Tuvixes? Tuvii?) into the respective Tuvok and Neelix. Leaving you with three individuals.

This would have been revolutionary in Trek, and as long as they never did it again it would remain unique and not watered down! They already had the actor who played Tuvix, and they could have kept him on in a recurring fashion. They really let go of an interesting character, I would say.

Also, to reference the debate in this thread, Janeway was wrong. She murdered Tuvix. Which is exactly why she walked out of Sickbay immediately after the procedure without saying anything other than "Welcome back". Its also a cop-out that the episode ends with no discussion about the consequences, like so many TNG episodes used to do.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Any transporter trickery, and even the reversal process they used would only create new (barely) distinct beings, not reinvigorate the dead.

It's an illusion that Tuvok and Chakotay were returned.

They were replaced.

 

[Farrens]

Any transporter trickery, and even the reversal process they used would only create new (barely) distinct beings, not reinvigorate the dead.

It's an illusion that Tuvok and Chakotay were returned.

They were replaced.

Same could be said about using the transporter at any time.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

The Docvok. Now that's an episode for the ages.

 

[Seven of Five]

I really liked Tuvix. I can be pretty down on Voyager sometimes, but at least this episode posed a compelling moral quandary. Was it the right decision to kill Tuvix in order to allow Tuvok and Neelix to live? Tuvok's kinda cool, but Neelix?

I honestly don't think so. From a non-emotional point of view, Tuvok and Neelix died in that transporter accident, and Tuvix was a new life-form. He even lived a life amongst the crew before Janeway ordered the procedure. He should have lived.

Ultimately though, Janeway did not have the luxury of this point of view. She was emotionally involved, and she wanted her friends back. Wrong, yes, but her heart was in the right place.

 

[DonIago]

I wonder whether Tuvix would have been capable of reproduction.

 

[Kass18]

I was quite creeped out by Tuvix, but Janeway made the right decision and it was beneficial for a lot of the crew members not just her to have Tuvok and Neelix back.

She did what any good Captain would do under this extraordinary circumstance, and was looking out for her crew members, saving 2 people is better than saving 1 so I fully support Janeway

 

[exodus]

It is just me, or is this episode totally disturbing. The character of Tuvix is creepy and yet endearing.

What do you think of Janeway's decision at the end?

I think he was made to look creepy on purpose because he was an abomination of nature and yes, deserved to die.


I also agree 100% with Kass18 statement above about the ep. showing what it takes to be Captain. A realistic leader knows sometimes takes doing a wrong thing, too make it right.

 

[DonIago]

I was quite creeped out by Tuvix, but Janeway made the right decision and it was beneficial for a lot of the crew members not just her to have Tuvok and Neelix back.

She did what any good Captain would do under this extraordinary circumstance, and was looking out for her crew members, saving 2 people is better than saving 1 so I fully support Janeway

Well now I wonder how you feel about Kirk's decision to rescue Chekov in TVH...even Spock admitted that it wasn't the logical thing to do. Or Archer's decision to abandon the Kobayashi Maru.

I also wouldn't characterize it as what a "good captain" would do. I can't see Picard authorizing Tuvix's execution, but I don't believe that makes him a bad captain, just as I don't believe Janeway's decision made her a good captain. It's the sort of decision with tough questions and no good answers and repercussions that will probably haunt you either way, but that's the price you pay for sitting in the center seat.

 

[Kass18]

I only watch Voyager so I'm afraid this is the only circumstance I can deem as an appropriate action taken.

Being Captain you certainly have your work cut out for you, Janeway certainly more than others and I admire her decisions. Main point is that despite what decisions and orders she made it was those that got everyone home in the end, she may not be perfect but she'll always be someone to look up to in my eyes

 

[DonIago]

Unfortunately after the decision she made in Tuvix I'm not sure I'd ever be able to look up to her.

That being said, I'll be the first to acknowledge she was placed in situations that were beyond the pale even by the standards of most starship captains, and that she deserves some level of credit for bringing her ship and crew home.

 

[exodus]

I was quite creeped out by Tuvix, but Janeway made the right decision and it was beneficial for a lot of the crew members not just her to have Tuvok and Neelix back.

She did what any good Captain would do under this extraordinary circumstance, and was looking out for her crew members, saving 2 people is better than saving 1 so I fully support Janeway

Well now I wonder how you feel about Kirk's decision to rescue Chekov in TVH...even Spock admitted that it wasn't the logical thing to do. Or Archer's decision to abandon the Kobayashi Maru.

I also wouldn't characterize it as what a "good captain" would do. I can't see Picard authorizing Tuvix's execution, but I don't believe that makes him a bad captain, just as I don't believe Janeway's decision made her a good captain. It's the sort of decision with tough questions and no good answers and repercussions that will probably haunt you either way, but that's the price you pay for sitting in the center seat.

We've seen in TNG that in order to obtain a command position you have to pass a test where you have to learn to cut emotional ties with your crewmen and order them to their death. Too be considered captain, you have to learn that on a larger scale. Picard just like every other captain HAS to be comfortable with making that decision if it is presented before them. None of them could be captain if they hadn't passed the test and accepted that may be a choice presented them in the line of duty.

 

[DonIago]

That rather goes both ways though...one could easily argue that the non-emotional course of action would be to not bring back two friends if it means possibly killing a unique lifeform.