Not if you're a military officer.
You're trained not only to defend but take lives(yes, plural) if need be. How can if you in that position judge Janeway if you're taught to do the same thing if ordered?
Tuvix
- Thread starter RoseDuneKat
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Not if you're a military officer.
You're trained not only to defend but take lives(yes, plural) if need be. How can if you in that position judge Janeway if you're taught to do the same thing if ordered?
I thought the argument was can a captain be considered a "good captain" if they give the order to execute a crewmen if presented with a such a situation?
Given the amount of debate in Tuvix, I don't believe there's any Starfleet principle that explicitly said, "Yes, you should go ahead and kill Tuvix." I would like to know exactly how long they should have gone on looking for a way to restore Tuvok and Neelix and leaving Tuvix hanging in the balance before deciding unequivocally that he had the right to continue living.
I'd also particularly like to know what Tuvok's and Neelix's thoughts were on the matter, given that the person best suited to speak for them didn't seem to support Janeway's decision...but of course, he also wasn't without bias.
Kes going to Janeway seemed particularly cheap and manipulative, though.
I'd also particularly like to know what Tuvok's and Neelix's thoughts were on the matter, given that the person best suited to speak for them didn't seem to support Janeway's decision...but of course, he also wasn't without bias.
Kes going to Janeway seemed particularly cheap and manipulative, though.
How is that cheap and manipulative? Kes came to Janeway with real concerns. At this point in the show she and Neelix were a couple were they not? Either way she loved him and she came to the Captain in fear that though Neelix was somewhere in Tuvix he still wasn't 'Neelix.'
This is one of the reasons Janeway would have based her decision on. I highly doubt that Janeway would have made that decision lightly, and Kes's somewhat plea was an important factor in this decision for it wouldn't be shown to be done in the best light if Janeway selfishly decided to kill Tuvix for her own satisfaction, for she also lost two great friends.
That moment Kes came to Janeway just reinforced the idea that she did it because of her crew and crew members like Kes. As a Captain, it is their duty to put the best interest of their crew first and in my opinion that is exactly what Janeway did.
In Riddles, Neelix Told Nuvok to have the brain surgery to recover his original Tuvok personality, even if it meant the death of his current personality.
Neelix, it would seem, was in the AntiTuvix-Camp.
Careful, that almost sounds as though, if there's someone who does their job competently but isn't well-liked, the Captain should consider means of getting them off the ship just to improve morale.
Kodos the Executioner had standards too.
Remember Neelix in air Trade thinking that he would be tossed off the ship as soon he ran out of local knowledge kathy could use?
I'm surprised Janeway didn't look into upgrading her more deficient crew as soon as she got her hand on all that Borg technology... Not that the Suder experiment didn't have her thinking about creating a squad of posthumans who would be be near Vulcan exceptional rather than dirtfarmers who failed to grow carrots in over their heads.
The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few or the one.
As long as Janeway keeps to that Machiavellian ideal when she is one of the few or the one, then she's isn't selfish, just pragmatic.
As long as Janeway keeps to that Machiavellian ideal when she is one of the few or the one, then she's isn't selfish, just pragmatic.
Was it really necessarily to bring back the dead? I thought we'd put this whole thing to rest...
In any case... now that it's alive again...
It would've been interesting to see Tuvok and Neelix watch a video log of Tuvix. I wonder what they would have thought about it. What a kick it would've been for Tuvok to visit Janeway and say "Captain, I understand your desire to bring us back but, I really must let you know that I believe your decision was flawed. Despite the tremendously significant odds against Tuvix coming into being, he did indeed appear and desired to live. Of course I prefer to be alive, but I can't help but wonder if Tuvix should have been allowed to live."
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Sure it was! For one thing, I wanted to give my two cents, and didn't think creating a brand new post was necessary. For another, mine was over 20 posts ago, so its clear that others had their two cents to offer as well!Was it really necessarily to bring back the dead? I thought we'd put this whole thing to rest...
That includes you, by the way.
Were they dead?
If they were dead, how could Tuvix be split and Tuvok & Neelix still be alive?
If they were presumed dead, what would be the point of looking for a cure?
Data, Odo & the EMH are all new life forms.
None of them had rights under the Federation.
If Tuvix is a new life form, does he have rights under Federation law?
If not, then what Janeway did was correct a mistake of science. Like correcting B'Elanna in "Faces" from her scientific tampering. Same concept, just polar opposites.
When Tuvix is first "created", Janeway tells him if a cure is found will he accept it too bring back Tuvok and Neelix. Tuvix agrees. He was always aware from the start that the procedure was on the horizon.
True.
Right or wrong?
Could anyone of us sacrifice our best friends life for a stranger?
It shows Janeway is human and that the human heart can conflict with morals.
Exactly. We can argue whether she was right or wrong till we're blue in the face but at the end of the day, she's human, she made that decision based on her emotions and experience, and that's why I love the episode. 
I think the thing that took the biscuit with me during the episode was Tuvix living among the crew for two weeks. I mean yeah at first, when the accident had just happened, he agreed to be seperated if they found a way to do it. But being alive for two weeks allowed this accident to become a living being. The ideal situation (which, alas, would have led to a least interesting episode
) would have been him going into stasis or a temporary coma or something.
I think the thing that took the biscuit with me during the episode was Tuvix living among the crew for two weeks. I mean yeah at first, when the accident had just happened, he agreed to be seperated if they found a way to do it. But being alive for two weeks allowed this accident to become a living being. The ideal situation (which, alas, would have led to a least interesting episode
) would have been him going into stasis or a temporary coma or something.
I think that Seven of Five is referring to the fact that it took a while for the Bajoran scientists working the "unknown sample" to figure out that it was a person and not a puddle of snot.
A very long while.
Think of it from the Cardassans point of view.
They found some space snot.
But what rights does one really give snot?
Your snot even.
The snot you just wiped under your chair, is it a more valued substance than a complete human being?
But if there was evidence that your snot was alive, if maybe it had the properties of algae or a fungus, but then maybe it's smarter than you thought and your snot is more like an animal, but then you're surprised when your snot starts talking, assuring you that it "hates" you.
That above was Odo's early development.
A very long while.
Think of it from the Cardassans point of view.
They found some space snot.
But what rights does one really give snot?
Your snot even.
The snot you just wiped under your chair, is it a more valued substance than a complete human being?
But if there was evidence that your snot was alive, if maybe it had the properties of algae or a fungus, but then maybe it's smarter than you thought and your snot is more like an animal, but then you're surprised when your snot starts talking, assuring you that it "hates" you.
That above was Odo's early development.
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I didn't say any of that, exodus did. 
I would put Tuvix in that 'snot' category myself though. Weird (!) thing at first, but we discover he's a person and should have a say in whether he dies or not.
I would put Tuvix in that 'snot' category myself though. Weird (!) thing at first, but we discover he's a person and should have a say in whether he dies or not.
Bollocks.
[shaking fist]Damn you Barron![/shaking fist]
[shaking fist]Damn you Barron![/shaking fist]
Chakotay?
