TUC: Overrated?

[enterprisecvn65]

This film was brilliant. The best ending and send-off I've ever seen. This and The Dark Knight Rises are my favorite endings of all-time. I highly enjoyed them. I know the 6th Star Trek film isn't without flaws. All movies aren't without flaws.

That could be debated.

I still think "Empire Strikes Back" is a perfect film. And, I'm sure there are other examples...like maybe "Raiders of the Lost Ark."

I agree original ESB was pretty much the perfect film, it loses perfect status with the special edition because of changing Boba Fett's voice and chopping up the scene of the Falcon escaping bespin just so we could see how Vader arrived at the Executor, as if we couldn't reason it out for ourselves and dropping a great vader line "Bring my shuttle" in the process. Apparently George Lucas thought it was pretty good too because it was the one he tried to screw up the least with changes.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

They were essentially working on a shoestring, even using recycle footage, which didn't really bother me because how many ways can Enterprise leave drydock

Think they were able to get away with it more so back then as there was little to no VHS so the last time many people would have seen the TMP drydock scene was Xmas 79

I think they did an extraordinary job with what they were given for II and III. If the sfx guys weren't so talented and creative it could have easily been closer to TFF visually

Think I read somewhere that many ILMers were big trek fans having grown up with TOS and been inspired by the FX etc and were very keen to work on the movies so that probably helped the FX look as good as they did

Well whatever the reason I'm glad the guys from ILM were as talented and dedicated as they were on II. Because we all know anything associated with George Lucas doesn't come cheap and with Paramount slashing the budget after dropping $100 mil+ on TMP Lucas could have very easily said "That's all you got for effects? OK I'll put my 4th string guys on it" and it could have been like TFF visually. As great a story as it was, it the visuals had sucked ass, it wouldn't have been a truly great film.

I think back then ILM guys though took real pride in their work no matter what film they were working on because they were viewed as the best and had to be so creative and bust their ass making all of the models and props and come up with new techniques like the nebula so it was very personal to them to make the effects top notch, regardless of how much the film was paying them.

Unfortunately that kind of pride in craftsmanship is severely lacking in many of today's sci fi films because often it's just a bunch of guys sitting at computers

 

[enterprisecvn65]

Well beyond this effects talk I'll mention what was my most personal disappointment in TUC.

In some pre release interviews Meyer and some of the actors, Takei was one and I think Koenig was the other all talked about how this was a great "Who done it" and the audience was probably going to be surprised at the end......

Here to me are 5 great surprises that have happened to me in movies (Yeah I know some of you know it alls will say "Oh I knew that before it was revealed"...goody for you.

1. "No....I am your father" nuff said
2. Kevin Spacey being Keyser Soze
3. James Cromwell shooting Kevin Spacey in LA Confidential
4. Michael ordering Fredo capped in GF II
5. Christian Bale hearing "But is Rah's Al Guhl immortal? Are his methods supernatural? As Bale turns around to see Liam Neeson with a big "Surprise Motherfucker" smile on his face. (I suspected this one a little, but it was still a great reveal)

In TUC the who done it was obviously "What person or people were behind Gorkon's assisination" Well they had to have a federation insider running things on the enterprise. Well lets see.... We have 6 of TOS cast members we've come to love, Sulu on the Excelsior and this brand new character in Valeris......Gee I wonder who is behind it, sorry Samno and Burke being the killers didn't blow me away either.

Well there was probably a Klingon insider running things on the other side.... Well Gorkon is dead so chances are he wasn't involved, probably wouldn't be his daughter, Kerla and others are given really small roles...Oh and there's this one character named Chang who seems to feel about humans the Kirk does about Klingons, seems to openly love war and being a warrior and disdains the thought of peace....hmmmmm again let me really think deeply about who it might be here.

Oh and throw in the one member of starfleet command who talked openly this being the opportunity to bring the Klingons to their knees, the Romulans who would greatly fear the Klingons and Federation making peace and Odo, or whoever he was being involved but getting cut out of the film.

There wasn't a single surprise in the whole conspiracy and unless you were completely clueless you could easily figure out at least two of the main people involved and even the other minor ones.

Now if the Klingon that Scotty shot had his mask pulled off and it was Sarek and his last words were he did what he did because it was illogical to expect two emotional forces like humans and Klingons to make peace.....THAT would have been surprising.

I know meyer is all into Sherlock Holmes and brought that into this film, but honestly this "mystery who done it" part was so weak Holmes, if he was in starfleet, would have figured it all out before the Enterprise even left spacedock.

 

[The Old Mixer]

I love TESB, it's my favorite Star Wars films and one of my all-time personal favorite films...but it loses points in the "perfect film" category because it's very much the middle chapter in a trilogy. It wouldn't have worked nearly as well if it had been a standalone film. It benefits both from the characters and setting having already been established in a very popular first film, and from being able to end on what would have been a very awkward and unsatisfying note for a lone movie.

Raiders, OTOH...that's the perfect film in my book.

Now if the Klingon that Scotty shot had his mask pulled off and it was Sarek and his last words were he did what he did because it was illogical to expect two emotional forces like humans and Klingons to make peace.....THAT would have been surprising.

"And I would have gotten away with it, too, if not for you illogical humans!"

 

[enterprisecvn65]

I love TESB, it's my favorite Star Wars films and one of my all-time personal favorite films...but it loses points in the "perfect film" category because it's very much the middle chapter in a trilogy. It wouldn't have worked nearly as well if it had been a standalone film. It benefits both from the characters and setting having already been established in a very popular first film, and from being able to end on what would have been a very awkward and unsatisfying note for a lone movie.

Raiders, OTOH...that's the perfect film in my book.

Now if the Klingon that Scotty shot had his mask pulled off and it was Sarek and his last words were he did what he did because it was illogical to expect two emotional forces like humans and Klingons to make peace.....THAT would have been surprising.

"And I would have gotten away with it, too, if not for you illogical humans!"

Oh and add when Warden Norton was tossing rocks all around the cell and one goes through the Raquel Welch poster and he pulls it away from the wall as another "Wow....didn't see that one coming at all" surprise in my movie experiences.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

This film was brilliant. The best ending and send-off I've ever seen. This and The Dark Knight Rises are my favorite endings of all-time. I highly enjoyed them. I know the 6th Star Trek film isn't without flaws. All movies aren't without flaws.

That could be debated.

I still think "Empire Strikes Back" is a perfect film. And, I'm sure there are other examples...like maybe "Raiders of the Lost Ark."

I agree original ESB was pretty much the perfect film, it loses perfect status with the special edition because of changing Boba Fett's voice and chopping up the scene of the Falcon escaping bespin just so we could see how Vader arrived at the Executor, as if we couldn't reason it out for ourselves and dropping a great vader line "Bring my shuttle" in the process. Apparently George Lucas thought it was pretty good too because it was the one he tried to screw up the least with changes.

Not too mention, breaking the tension after the Luke/Vader fight when Luke falls (seemingly) to his death with the Emperor's scream taken from ROTJ.

Now, I didn't mind the additions to Cloud City (e.g. Creating windows to show the vastness, and extending the initial Millennium Falcon landing) but, yeah, ESB didn't really need any tinkering.

I love TESB, it's my favorite Star Wars films and one of my all-time personal favorite films...but it loses points in the "perfect film" category because it's very much the middle chapter in a trilogy. It wouldn't have worked nearly as well if it had been a standalone film. It benefits both from the characters and setting having already been established in a very popular first film, and from being able to end on what would have been a very awkward and unsatisfying note for a lone movie.

Raiders, OTOH...that's the perfect film in my book.

True...true. I guess as a sequel it's perfect....because so many sequels fail. Even "Captain America: Winter Soldier" - as good as it was - managed to be huge improvement over the first film, but CinemaSins on Youtube did a good job in pointing out the many flaws of the film.

Interestingly, CinemaSins has yet to do ESB or even "Raiders"...

 

[eyeresist]

Thankfully I have never seen the "improved" version of TESB. Sitting through the first film once was enough for me. TESB does suffer a little from the "middle film problem" of not have a real beginning or ending, but for me the main issue is the whole Dagobah section, which I guess I enjoyed as a kid, but which I now find tedious if not actually cringe-worthy. Hoth is very cool , the asteroids are pretty cool, Cloud City is a great show-down. Dagobah is Luke whining and Yoda patronising him in the voice of Fozzie Bear.

 

[fireproof78]

That could be debated.

I still think "Empire Strikes Back" is a perfect film. And, I'm sure there are other examples...like maybe "Raiders of the Lost Ark."

I agree original ESB was pretty much the perfect film, it loses perfect status with the special edition because of changing Boba Fett's voice and chopping up the scene of the Falcon escaping bespin just so we could see how Vader arrived at the Executor, as if we couldn't reason it out for ourselves and dropping a great vader line "Bring my shuttle" in the process. Apparently George Lucas thought it was pretty good too because it was the one he tried to screw up the least with changes.

Not too mention, breaking the tension after the Luke/Vader fight when Luke falls (seemingly) to his death with the Emperor's scream taken from ROTJ.

Now, I didn't mind the additions to Cloud City (e.g. Creating windows to show the vastness, and extending the initial Millennium Falcon landing) but, yeah, ESB didn't really need any tinkering.

I love TESB, it's my favorite Star Wars films and one of my all-time personal favorite films...but it loses points in the "perfect film" category because it's very much the middle chapter in a trilogy. It wouldn't have worked nearly as well if it had been a standalone film. It benefits both from the characters and setting having already been established in a very popular first film, and from being able to end on what would have been a very awkward and unsatisfying note for a lone movie.

Raiders, OTOH...that's the perfect film in my book.

True...true. I guess as a sequel it's perfect....because so many sequels fail. Even "Captain America: Winter Soldier" - as good as it was - managed to be huge improvement over the first film, but CinemaSins on Youtube did a good job in pointing out the many flaws of the film.

Interestingly, CinemaSins has yet to do ESB or even "Raiders"...

CinemaSins has its hands full with Transformers to worry about that

And they really don't need to, since Movie Mistakes already took it on

Also, like my taste in Trek films, with TUC being on the top, TESB is not my favorite SW film. I enjoy it, but it is too dark for my tastes.

Beyond that, one simply has to look around the Interwebs to find detractors of TESB

 

[F. King Daniel]

I'm just gonna leave this furious 1980 review of ESB here
http://fanlore.org/wiki/The_Empire_Strikes_Back

 

[Smellmet]

That is one hell of a rant isn't it?

 

[Praxius]

I'm just gonna leave this furious 1980 review of ESB here
http://fanlore.org/wiki/The_Empire_Strikes_Back

I'd have to agree.... Never was a Star Wars fan and simply didn't get all the hype over the movies. The characters were shallow, story was bland and revolved around entertaining the viewer with special effects and fancy lights, and even that wasn't done well.

Granted, I thought the walker things in Empire Strikes Back were pretty cool when I was a kid, but as I got older, I saw too many special effects flaws, like seeing a pilot in his cockpit fly towards one and you could still see the lower half of the walker floating through the console of his ship..... then they came out with those remastered version in the 90's or whenever, and they showed the before and after of that scene and that transparency issue was still there.

Seriously?

Anyways, I suppose this is getting way off topic from TUC now, thus I digress.

 

[Maurice]

The transparency was a way of defeating the pasted-on look of the VFX. By printing the elements at less than 100% they blended better with the backgrounds. It was a deliberate tradeoff, and it wasn't really that noticeable in the theater. Films on TV never look the same as they do projected.

 

[Captrek]

The transparency is supposed to be fixed in Revisited, if it ever comes out.

Work began in 2008 with an announced release date of 2010. Still waiting...

 

[Praxius]

Getting back to TUC, regarding René Auberjonois being cut out of the film, exactly what and when was he cut out of the film?

I used to have the VHS of TUC and I remember him being in it clearly while speaking with the President.

 

[Smellmet]

I've never seen a version without him in it. There's the clipboard scene and the scooby-doo bit with him in it. Surely these are important scenes?

 

[Praxius]

I just looked it up and apparently his scenes were cut from the theatre and later added in when it came out on video..... Odd.

West never actually appeared in the theatrical version of Star Trek VI since his scenes were deleted. However, he can be seen on the VHS and DVD releases of the movie, but is not listed in the cast credits at the end of VHS or DVD.

In 2009, The Undiscovered Country was re-released on DVD, omitting the West scenes as it was the first DVD release of the theatrical cut. The theatrical cut is also the only version released to date on Blu-ray.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/West

And I'm getting the BluRay collection this Christmas.... Does that mean his scenes won't be in the movie?

How does that even work??

 

[gottacook]

Any release of the theatrical version of TUC will have no scenes with Auberjonois as West. Those scenes were indeed added back to the movie for home video release, but I can easily see why the character was cut - it adds nothing to the story to make him the shooter. When I saw the movie in '91, his absence wasn't even noticed.

(You do realize that he's based on Col. Oliver North of arms-for-hostages infamy about 5 years earlier? They make it rather obvious by calling him "Colonel West"...)

 

[Praxius]

I have no idea who North is, but how can the story work out if they don't show him disguised as a Klingon attempting to shoot the President or being unmasked and identified as the shooter?

Does that mean that Scotty didn't bust down the door and shoot him?

Or the part about the dead Assassin not having Klingon Blood?

Those are pretty good chunks of the drama at the end of the story that indeed add to it.

The beginning where he explains the rescue mission not only helps establish the character and later identified as the assassin, but it also shows that Starfleet wasn't just going to sit on its arse & do nothing over the captivity of two of their most renowned officers who did so much for the Federation in their careers.... Plus the fact that he being one of the conspirators, he knew Kirk and McCoy were innocent and the whole mission went sideways when Kirk surrendered.

Attempt #1 to start a war failed, the rescue mission would have been attempt #2 to start a war and thus they were left with attempt #3 of shooting the President and framing the Klingons to start a war.

Add all of this together, plus the Klingon/Human blood differences (which now I realize explained the pink blood a bit more) and you have one important foundation to the overall story simply gone.

So if René's scenes were cut, what happens in the end of the movie? They defeat Chang, beam down to the planet in a huff, Kirk suddenly makes his grand speech in front of everybody, everybody hugs and that's that??

Does not compute..... They would be saying, "Um... Shouldn't you be mining rocks on some ice planet? WTF are you doing here?"

Kirk, "I just destroyed Chang's ship, he was going to do bad things."

But the ship is obliterated so they just take his word for it and it somehow ties in with clearing his name, while also somehow saving the President and the peace conference?

What about the Mind Meld and the spewing of information that ties with West and the plan?

 

[Stoo]

cut, what happens in the end of the movie? They defeat Chang, beam down to the planet in a huff, Kirk suddenly makes his grand speech in front of everybody, everybody hugs and that's that?

They beam down and stop a klingon sniper, we just don't get the scooby-doo reveal about the sniper's real identity.

 

[Praxius]

cut, what happens in the end of the movie? They defeat Chang, beam down to the planet in a huff, Kirk suddenly makes his grand speech in front of everybody, everybody hugs and that's that?

They beam down and stop a klingon sniper, we just don't get the scooby-doo reveal about the sniper's real identity.

Well that's just poopy.