"Trill: that's an interesting race"...um, no, no it's not

[Sci]

And if they have and still think Trill society is boring?

Then they're pure crazy. No society that torn apart by elitism, secrecy, and domestic terrorism can reasonably called "boring."

Really? And if you think that Unjoined was the most cliche route they could have gone with the Trill and therefore were bored and annoyed with the book? What then?

Then being bored with the novel is different from being bored with Trill society. Even if you think the novel was bad, you should find all sorts of interesting implications or ideas about Trill society given what Trill: Unjoined established about their society.

 

[Navaros]

In regards to the criticism of my strong wordings: the idea behind that is, I try to make the strength of my critical wordings on par to the amount of screen-time wasted on the very issues I am criticizing. That way, there is an equilibrium between my wordings and the magnitude & frequency to which these issues have ruined my viewing enjoyment of scenes and/or episodes.

For example, if Trills only ever made boring, generic, useless statements in one or two episodes, my wordings about those issues wouldn't have been nearly so strong as they are due the fact that they actually make them in 100+ episodes and hence have caused irreparable harm to my viewing enjoyment of the series as a whole.

 

[AdmiralGarak]

Oh, and re: OP.... It'd be easier to take you seriously if it wasn't the same old, same old.

To quote the last line of our show, "The more things change, the more they stay the same."

 

[Thestral]

In regards to the criticism of my strong wordings: the idea behind that is, I try to make the strength of my critical wordings on par to the amount of screen-time wasted on the very issues I am criticizing. That way, there is an equilibrium between my wordings and the magnitude & frequency to which these issues have ruined my viewing enjoyment of scenes and/or episodes.

For example, if Trills only ever made boring, generic, useless statements in one or two episodes, my wordings about those issues wouldn't have been nearly so strong as they are due the fact that they actually make them in 100+ episodes and hence have caused irreparable harm to my viewing enjoyment of the series as a whole.

Well... while it may annoy me often, I can't fault your logic.

 

[Fencer]

Then they're pure crazy. No society that torn apart by elitism, secrecy, and domestic terrorism can reasonably called "boring."

Really? And if you think that Unjoined was the most cliche route they could have gone with the Trill and therefore were bored and annoyed with the book? What then?

What would you propose that's better and less cliche? This is a Federation species we're talking about, one of the "wisest" and their society is secretly (of course) falling apart. The plotline of Unjoined - not to mention it's culmination of a thread going back to Mission Gamma and hinted at in the Lives of Dax - is one of the more unique storylines in Star Trek, I'd say. At least in part because it gleefully rips away the mask of perfection. And the only logical outcome based on what was established in "Equilibrium."

Anything would have been less cliche then "perfect alien race has deep secret that shows it's perfection is false" is one of Star Treks standard plots and that was what the Trill storyline amounted to, including that bit where the human representative states that humans don't have that sort of problem anymore. The only difference this time is that is one of the Federation races rather then some alien of the week.

 

[Fencer]

What would you propose that's better and less cliche? This is a Federation species we're talking about, one of the "wisest" and their society is secretly (of course) falling apart. The plotline of Unjoined - not to mention it's culmination of a thread going back to Mission Gamma and hinted at in the Lives of Dax - is one of the more unique storylines in Star Trek, I'd say. At least in part because it gleefully rips away the mask of perfection. And the only logical outcome based on what was established in "Equilibrium."

Anything would have been less cliche then "perfect alien race has deep secret that shows it's perfection is false" is one of Star Treks standard plots and that was what the Trill storyline amounted to, including that bit where the human representative states that humans don't have that sort of problem anymore. The only difference this time is that is one of the Federation races rather then some alien of the week.[/QUOTE]

Then being bored with the novel is different from being bored with Trill society. Even if you think the novel was bad, you should find all sorts of interesting implications or ideas about Trill society given what Trill: Unjoined established about their society.

No. Not a thing. The novel didn't make Trill society any deeper. There is nothing from the novel that isn't you standard cliche about powerful minorities lording it over everybody else. The most "interesting" (stupid is more like it) thing about the novel is that they get rid of the one characteristic that makes the Trill more then spotted humans.

 

[Yassim]

I have always wondered what, if anything, the writers were trying to say with the Trill.

Most alien races on Trek, if they're any good, are a commentary on humanity (especially the alien or half-alien main characters). Vulcans show us caught between reason and emotion. The Ferengi prize profit over everything. A half-Klingon is always afraid of their temper. Odo is always an outsider, and trying to find a balance between being himself and fitting in.

In TNG, the Trill were an interesting exploration of whether we love the outside or the inside of a person (whether you like the ep or not, the idea is thought-provoking).

Not once did Jadzia do anything interesting with the fact she was a Trill. The legal case against her previous life wasn't bad, but unbelievably contrived - this has never come up before? Conjoined wasn't a bad idea... but as a rule, Jadzia was an annoying human with spots.

Now Ezri actually did have a human concept at her core. Sometimes we all feel like a fake - things are expected of us that we don't feel equal to. We wonder if people realize that we are playing a role. *That* is a human condition that the Trill can comment on. I think it's why Ezri was much more interesting as a character than Jadzia IMO.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Vulcans show us caught between reason and emotion.

Much as I like the Vulcans, too often their actual role was to excuse humans from having to think logically at all. I'll never forget the moment in Voyager when, faced with some crisis, Tuvok says such and such would be the logical response and Janeway snaps back that "this isn't about logic". OK, if you want to behave randomly that's up to you, but probably not a good idea if you're in charge of a spaceship full of people.

 

[PSGarak]

I always felt there was a great deal of wasted potential with this race, too. It could have been much more interesting if handled in a different way, such as occasional conflict between biped and slug, an imperfect joining with both retaining separate personalities but somehow having to find a way to co-exist in the same body. Instead, it seemed a little too contrived. I also think it would've been interesting to see and explore some of the candidates that were rejected, maybe more people from Jadzia's past who had been in competition for hosting the Dax symbiont but still wound up in Starfleet. There was just never really enough conflict centering around the Trill, and while yes, it meant Cardassians and Bajorans got more air time, it also always felt like a missed opportunity.

 

[Kosh Naranek]

I have always wondered what, if anything, the writers were trying to say with the Trill.

Most alien races on Trek, if they're any good, are a commentary on humanity (especially the alien or half-alien main characters). Vulcans show us caught between reason and emotion. The Ferengi prize profit over everything. A half-Klingon is always afraid of their temper. Odo is always an outsider, and trying to find a balance between being himself and fitting in.

In TNG, the Trill were an interesting exploration of whether we love the outside or the inside of a person (whether you like the ep or not, the idea is thought-provoking).

Not once did Jadzia do anything interesting with the fact she was a Trill. The legal case against her previous life wasn't bad, but unbelievably contrived - this has never come up before? Conjoined wasn't a bad idea... but as a rule, Jadzia was an annoying human with spots.

Now Ezri actually did have a human concept at her core. Sometimes we all feel like a fake - things are expected of us that we don't feel equal to. We wonder if people realize that we are playing a role. *That* is a human condition that the Trill can comment on. I think it's why Ezri was much more interesting as a character than Jadzia IMO.

I do not believe I could have summed up my thoughts on the Trill more eloquently. Bravo!

On TNG the Trill made me think about feelings, attraction, what it really meant to care for someone.

Then boom....Jadzia the "goddess."

A lot of time was spent building up Ezri at the end of the show's run, but I thought it was time well spent.

It made the Trill interesting again.

She was made a host because she was the only Trill on board. How do you drop into a life culled out by another person?

 

[Too Much Fun]

I don't see a really fair argument here for the idea of the Trill being boring...it seems people are confusing that with their opinion that the actual people who played Trill were boring, or not explored interestingly. And this of course leads to more Jadzia bashing. I can understand if people thought that the writers didn't explore the culture to its potential creatively or that Jadzia didn't make it look very interesting (though I'd never agree with that), but this doesn't change the fact that the concept of the culture itself is definitely very intriguing.

In fact, I think it's one of the most fascinating and original alien races ever invented in "Star Trek"...just the idea of a being that could contain the memories and feelings of several lifetimes is endlessly thought-provoking for its physical, emotional, and psychological implications. There are so many questions it raises about the capacity of an individual to maintain so much different knowledge, intelligence, and feeling all at once and how it defines the person's identity.

I can't believe someone could find the concept of a person constructed this way to be uninteresting. If you think the writers could have done more with it or come up with a better character to explore it through, fine, but those criticisms don't mean the idea of the race itself isn't interesting.

 

[PSGarak]

I can't believe someone could find the concept of a person constructed this way to be uninteresting. If you think the writers could have done more with it or come up with a better character to explore it through, fine, but those criticisms don't mean the idea of the race itself isn't interesting.

I agree with your point here, and I also think that it's the root of a lot of the frustration you see expressed about the Trill. In and of itself, it is an interesting concept. However, it was executed so poorly that it left many wondering, "What's the point?" I think in some ways, having a cool concept completely fall flat and being wasted is way worse than having a shaky concept that at least has a great deal of effort put into its execution.

I'm not one of the ones who hate Jadzia or think that Terry Farell did a bad job playing her. I think she did the best she could with what she was given. It's just frustrating to have a major character of a series start out from the get-go as near perfect. It doesn't leave much room for development or give much of an in for developing further interest. It's hard to care about someone who doesn't have much to struggle with. She's beautiful, she's intelligent, she's self-confident, and her biggest character flaw seems to be that she's a little smug. It's not a reason to hate the character, but there's also just not much there to get excited about.

For an alien race to be truly interesting, it needs more than a cool starting concept. That's pretty much just the foundation work. They built a nice foundation, and then they pitched a tent on top of it instead of taking it to its potential. That's something I'll never understand.

 

[psikeyhackr]

Do you ever think about how weird this joined species is?

How advanced did the surgical techniques have to be to cut people open to install a worm? Who was the first person to volunteer for this and why did they do it?

This is another one of those things you just have to turn off your brain and accept because it doesn't make any sense. If they had evolve to join together and no surgery was required I could buy it. But not something that requires a significant level of medical knowledge to implement. Aliens gestating inside people makes more sense than Trills.

psik

 

[Navaros]

I don't see a really fair argument here for the idea of the Trill being boring...it seems people are confusing that with their opinion that the actual people who played Trill were boring, or not explored interestingly. And this of course leads to more Jadzia bashing. I can understand if people thought that the writers didn't explore the culture to its potential creatively or that Jadzia didn't make it look very interesting (though I'd never agree with that), but this doesn't change the fact that the concept of the culture itself is definitely very intriguing.

In fact, I think it's one of the most fascinating and original alien races ever invented in "Star Trek"...just the idea of a being that could contain the memories and feelings of several lifetimes is endlessly thought-provoking for its physical, emotional, and psychological implications. There are so many questions it raises about the capacity of an individual to maintain so much different knowledge, intelligence, and feeling all at once and how it defines the person's identity.

I can't believe someone could find the concept of a person constructed this way to be uninteresting. If you think the writers could have done more with it or come up with a better character to explore it through, fine, but those criticisms don't mean the idea of the race itself isn't interesting.

The race and concept is only as interesting as what they put on-screen.

And what they put on-screen contained none of the things you mentioned, therefore the race was uninteresting.

Jadzia never did anything differently than a normal human who had only lived one life time would. She was, based on what they put on-screen, for all intents and purpose no different than anyone else who just had a standard level of memories, knowledge and feelings. They constantly say that she and other Trills are special, unique, and more valuable than other humanoids due to increased knowledge and experiences, yet those statements are never borne out with on-screen proof to back up the exposition; therefore Trill simply fall flat as a failed concept.

 

[Yassim]

just the idea of a being that could contain the memories and feelings of several lifetimes is endlessly thought-provoking for its physical, emotional, and psychological implications. There are so many questions it raises about the capacity of an individual to maintain so much different knowledge, intelligence, and feeling all at once and how it defines the person's identity

I'd agree that these ideas are *interesting*, but I'm not sure that most of these ideas explore anything to do with being *human*.

We got an episode where a female acts on her memories of being male. That's a thought-provoking commentary (potentially, anyway) on gender. Each of us has a gender, and can wonder what part of our personality it formed.

So Jadzia remembers reading 8 times more books than I do - so what? So she's lived a long time - so what? Some people live long times, some people don't. She's had different personalities... meaning what?

The episode where her symbiont was stolen ends with the idea that the thief will always be a part of her... meaning what exactly? Nothing any human can identify with, I guess.... because it was never raised again.

I think the episode "Facets" really demonstrates the problem with the Trill. "I used to be a gymnast... no wonder I can do somersaults." "I liked being a mother once ... now I don't." It's all either mundane or inhuman, and frankly, it's just like talking to anyone who's lived a long-time. The aspect of different personalities doesn't add much to the conversation at all.

Frankly, given how great the writers' instincts were, in the set-up, I'm surprised that such a half-baked idea got written into the premise.

 

[WarpTenLizard]

The Trill are my favorite species on "Star Trek," but Spock's Beard was your description of them a riot.

I'm planning a fanfic with a snarky Trill, and after reading this thread, I am absolutely going to have him meet his match in someone who is tired of hearing his reminiscing. I'll credit you whenever I get around to writing it.

 

[Qonundrum]

I was watching the scant 'extras' (I am loathe to call them that since that word itself is way more high praise than they merit) on the Season 2 DVDs and Piller (I think) made a comment to the effect that since there was so much history in Trek before DS9, they could draw from the good things already established. Piller said something like "Trill: that's an interesting race, so let's use them."

I must strongly disagree with Piller. There is nothing interesting about the Trill race. For all intents and purposes, they are identical to humans, only far more boring, because they constantly say things like, "In a past life I did this, in a past life I did that" in the most mundane, colossally-uninteresting way possible. IMO the Trill are interesting only insomuch as a surefire cure for insomnsia, because listening to them endlessly drone on and on about generic stuff that no one cares about makes staying awake an extremely difficult challenge. Then again, even that is not interesting because all they are doing is lifting the behaviours of elderly persons; in other words, an already-established age-old human trait.

If they did a Trill episode with a Trill acting so disjointed, that might have been fun. The closest I recall was in the treknobabble episode where Dax allows others to live her past lives somehow.

The other episode I recall, where the Trill were interesting, where she had found a former lover symbiont and proceeded to break custom/law/safe sex protocols just to go at it again was pretty good for exploring an issue they carefully crafted.

But they'd end up having her spout exposition in the end, anyway. There's only so much one can do.

Now, if the Trill were to show the different personalities of all their past lives constantly, and always be switching between them, that would make Trill be an interesting race. In fact, that is about the only thing I can think of that would possibly make Trill an interesting race. I suspect somewhere along the line some of TPTB must have realized this, but they backed down because they were afraid the Trill actors wouldn't have the acting talent to pull off making them interesting by doing that.

It would. Ever see the TV show "Dollhouse", where "dolls" (people) are given different personalities to do espionage or other types of work? Maybe the Trill were a partial inspiration for the series, of which season 1 is by far the best, but it's not as easy to care for a character as it's just a body husk using a copy/paste of some other soul. It's a very creative show, but as with most things sci-fi, to make it break into mainstream while keeping the nerdy geeks and geeky nerds happy is not an easy task.

 

[Captain_Nick]

I was watching the scant 'extras' (I am loathe to call them that since that word itself is way more high praise than they merit) on the Season 2 DVDs and Piller (I think) made a comment to the effect that since there was so much history in Trek before DS9, they could draw from the good things already established. Piller said something like "Trill: that's an interesting race, so let's use them."

I must strongly disagree with Piller. There is nothing interesting about the Trill race. For all intents and purposes, they are identical to humans, only far more boring, because they constantly say things like, "In a past life I did this, in a past life I did that" in the most mundane, colossally-uninteresting way possible. IMO the Trill are interesting only insomuch as a surefire cure for insomnsia, because listening to them endlessly drone on and on about generic stuff that no one cares about makes staying awake an extremely difficult challenge. Then again, even that is not interesting because all they are doing is lifting the behaviours of elderly persons; in other words, an already-established age-old human trait.

Now, if the Trill were to show the different personalities of all their past lives constantly, and always be switching between them, that would make Trill be an interesting race. In fact, that is about the only thing I can think of that would possibly make Trill an interesting race. I suspect somewhere along the line some of TPTB must have realized this, but they backed down because they were afraid the Trill actors wouldn't have the acting talent to pull off making them interesting by doing that.

Wow. I can feel your anger bro.

Don't agree at all of course.

 

[Tosk]

Hot damn, twelve years!

 

[Lynx]

I must admit that I find the Trill a very weird species.

The whole thing with someone getting memories from another person is...........weird, to say the least.

Wouldn't it be a risk for mental disorder for such a person? Let's say that someone carries a symbiont with memories from a downright fantastic life and then wants to go back to that time and start hating his/her current life?

No, sometimes the Trill concept was just too weird for me. But I actually like both Jadzia and Ezri so most of the time I just let the whole Trill thing flow by as I acted if it don't existed, just like I did with the Ocampa nine-year lifespan (Voyager) which I found stupid.