Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/action?

[FarStrider]

Re: Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/actio

I can predict the result of that poll: An overwhelming desire to see Khan vs. Kirk on the big screen again. The results will confound this forum to no end. Orci knows this will be the result, thats why he responded as he has done so he can point to the poll later and silence the naysayers.

I think you're right - the anti-Khan sentiment around here is due to the fundamentalist and highly detailed mentality of this place. To people with a more tangental interest in Star Trek (which is 90% of everyone who'd go see a movie), anything associated with "something fun that I barely remember anyway, so it'll be new to me" will get a thumbs up vote.

I think (hope) the writers know that they have a much larger audience than just Trekkies/Trekkers to please now. . .and that Star Trek can't be an insular club anymore if it wants to continue to be relevant.

Which is exactly why Khan could work for Trek XII. To the 90% of folks who don't know what TrekBBS or TrekMovie are, but will go see Trek XII, Khan isn't an overused, overplayed, hackneyed old element. It's something they barely recognize but just remember well enough that it sounds intriguing.

And yes, Star Trek is not an insular club anymore which is why the idea of the next movie being about Khan is far from a recipe for disaster. Abrams & co just made hundreds of millions by taking "Kirk, Spock, Enterprise" and spinning a new story from old elements. "Khan" is another element in that same category. Why wouldn't they assume that what worked once will work again?

You're forgetting that the 90% of folks who don't know what TrekBBS or TrekMovie are won't be voting in any polls about whether to include Khan in the next movie or not. Most of them will just wait for the next movie, and even then won't be going onto internet sites to find out information about the movie just before it comes out; so really, the only people being polled about it are "us". . .

And I agree that Khan is an element of the Star Trek universe, but there are a lot of other elements that they can explore. . how about the Gorn? Everyone "knows" about the lizard people if only because the Gorn was prominent in the closing credits of TOS. . .

it's really not that I don't like the idea of Khan, (and if they did do Khan, it would have to be more "Spaceseed," than "Wrath"), but the fact is that the writers have created a new universe/timeline so they won't be hemmed in by stories that were told before. . . I just think it would be a mistake for them to fall back on something so recognizably "Old School".

~FS

 

[Sharr Khan]

Re: Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/actio

but the fact is that the writers have created a new universe/timeline so they won't be hemmed in by stories that were told before. . . I just think it would be a mistake for them to fall back on something so recognizably "Old School".

Telling a new story, with old characters is not a reshash. Its actually part of the elegance of having an alternate reality as you can take familiar things and place them in different situations with different outcomes - thats also why The Mirror Universe always has so much appeal.

Anything they do with Khan will be by definition "Fresh" as the universe he now must inhabit has already been radically changed by the first installment.

They could even give him an empire (I like that idea alot) and make him an ally (a backstabbing ally) should the notion strike them to have done so. The chessboard has already been radically altered so any game on it will be fresh.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Re: Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/actio

You're forgetting that the 90% of folks who don't know what TrekBBS or TrekMovie are won't be voting in any polls about whether to include Khan in the next movie or not.

Paramount will be doing what corporations usually do - market research in malls and stuff. Orci & Kurtzman can refer to that research to justify whatever it is that they're going to do anyway, whether we like it or not. I'm sure they and Paramount both know better than to trust online polls.

What might be interesting: what happens if the market research firm that Paramount hires comes up with results that conflict with Orci & Kurtzman wanting to do a Khan story? My experience when things like this happen in the entertainment biz is that the peons in market research get trumped by the creatives, as long as the creatives have a track record of making boatloads of money. The bean counters will roll the dice for people with a good track record, but if they flop, then their credibility is shot and market research wins the next go-round.

At any rate, conflicts like this never get a public airing. If the market research is "bad," we won't hear a whiff of it. And also in my experience, market research is often wrong. So if the mallrats say they don't want Khan, that won't stop them from going to see a movie about him. People don't know what the fuck they want. Orci & Kurtzman should go with their gut.

 

[FarStrider]

Re: Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/actio

You're forgetting that the 90% of folks who don't know what TrekBBS or TrekMovie are won't be voting in any polls about whether to include Khan in the next movie or not.

Paramount will be doing what corporations usually do - market research in malls and stuff. Orci & Kurtzman can refer to that research to justify whatever it is that they're going to do anyway, whether we like it or not. I'm sure they and Paramount both know better than to trust online polls.

What might be interesting: what happens if the market research firm that Paramount hires comes up with results that conflict with Orci & Kurtzman wanting to do a Khan story? My experience when things like this happen in the entertainment biz is that the peons in market research get trumped by the creatives, as long as the creatives have a track record of making boatloads of money. The bean counters will roll the dice for people with a good track record, but if they flop, then their credibility is shot and market research wins the next go-round.

At any rate, conflicts like this never get a public airing. If the market research is "bad," we won't hear a whiff of it. And also in my experience, market research is often wrong. So if the mallrats say they don't want Khan, that won't stop them from going to see a movie about him. People don't know what the fuck they want. Orci & Kurtzman should go with their gut.

Orci, Kurtzman et. al are not only the writers, but also the producers. . . so they'd be the ones responsible for the market research and what they do with it. . . the fact is we don't know that they WANT to do a Khan story. . .and given their track record of keeping secrets, (Hello, "Lost". . . hello "Fringe". . . Hello Star Trek 09) any hints that you *think* you found in an interview or whatever (a Khan comic book two years before the movie? It's obvious the next movie is going to be about him!!! Oh hey! Captain Harriman had a comic book recently, let's get him (or his parents) in the next movie too!) at this stage in the game (no script yet, two years before the movie is onscreen and one year before it is filmed) is probably a total misdirection. . .

~FS

 

[Sharr Khan]

Re: Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/actio

They're going to be pushing Khan plushies... Khan plushies there's more here, here. I don't think Capt milquetoast Harrimen has exactly reached mythological proportions in the same manner as Khan so not a good comparison.

And I'm fairly sure I read right here that they have a story. Paramount must have some clue of what direction they want to go in by now.

And if its not this movie, it'll happen at some point. They won't let such a meeting take place in a book or comic between nuKirk and nuKhan as to Paramount that would likely seem a wasted dramatic opportunity.

 

[FarStrider]

Re: Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/actio

They're going to be pushing Khan plushies... Khan plushies there's more here, here.

As a tie-in to a comic book that is coming out TWO years before any movie (with no script, and no firm shooting schedule as of yet). . . a Khan plushie that would not have ANYTHING to do with any version of Khan the writers would be dealing with considering that the new alternate universe version (IF they decide to use Khan at all) would be more inline with "Space Seed Khan". . .I don't think there is a "here" here. . . I think you're reading too much into it. . .

I don't think Capt milquetoast Harrimen has exactly reached mythological proportions in the same manner as Khan so not a good comparison.

But he does have a comic book, which is the rationale you were using for Khan being in the next movie. . .plus, he is responsible for "killing the legendary Captain Kirk". . .sounds highly mythological to me. . .

And I'm fairly sure I read right here that they have a story. Paramount must have some clue of what direction they want to go in by now.

The writers have a direction that they want to go. . . and a story that they are fleshing out. . . but they don't have to have a script to Paramount until Christmas. . .

And if its not this movie, it'll happen at some point. They won't let such a meeting take place in a book or comic between nuKirk and nuKhan as to Paramount that would likely seem a wasted dramatic opportunity.

Paramount is also in charge of the books. . . maybe the Khan story is something that the company would want to explore in novels. . . that way it can be as epic as necessary without being diced, sliced, julienned, scattered, slathered and smothered into a 2-hour movie. Just a thought. . .

Like I said before, these people know how to keep secrets, and are not above misdirection in order to keep those secrets. . . anything you think you figured out at this point in the game is most likely wrong.

~FS

 

[Sharr Khan]

Re: Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/actio

But he does have a comic book, which is the rationale you were using for Khan being in the next movie. . .plus, he is responsible for "killing the legendary Captain Kirk". . .sounds highly mythological to me. . .

No the rationale I was using is they've cited "The Dark Knight" as an inspiration for where they want to take the franchise. A film that introduces Batman's arch foe. I see an easy comparison here between the Joker and Khan.

The comic is a mere indication.

And Harrimen is not mythological, he's a mere guest star who is brought up for those in between times in a largely unexplored era between TOS and TNG more suited for side stories. Ask any man on the street and they won't have a clue who he is... i

Now Khan they'll at least remember epic chest and that he was also that guy from Fantasy Island, who killed Spock. They won't waste a chance to have an epic re-battle on the big screen for it to be done in books that only Trek fans buy.

Does every comic get a plushie? No.

And for guys who can keep a secret I remember knowing even before anything was official that time travel would be involved and that Vulcan would be destroyed during the last go around here. Of course they avoided confirming or denying any of it for a long while.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Re: Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/actio

No the rationale I was using is they've cited "The Dark Knight" as an inspiration for where they want to take the franchise. A film that introduces Batman's arch foe. I see an easy comparison here between the Joker and Khan.

That logic is exactly why I think Khan is likely. We're thinking like fanboys and girls. To us, Khan is well known - too well known - we want to see something more unusual and unexpected.

But Abrams & co. didn't get where they are by thinking like fans. They think like people charged with creating a profitable mass-market product. To them, Khan is the next logical step. And 90% of the people seeing Trek XI won't think Khan is any more "worn out" than Kirk or Spock were "worn out." To them, it's all new.

And Harrimen is not mythological

Yup. I can barely remember who the guy is. Khan is the only villain in TOS who has reached a level of pop culture awareness on the level of The Joker.

 

[FlapJoy]

Re: Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/actio

And I think his hatred for Spock went further than a personal vendetta, and could of been seen as disdain for all of Vulcan kind. Their races have a violent and racist history and Nero could have lived his 24th century life hating the Vulcans and a United Federation that supports their policies (sound familiar?), long before the destruction of Romulus finally sets him off, and gives him a singular Vulcan to blame.

Spock embodies to Nero all the crimes against Romulans, perceived or otherwise, that occurred throughout their two society's long history, not just recent events.

What "policies" have the Feddies or Vulcan enacted that are so terrible? What crimes have Vulcans committed against Romulans?

That's what I meant by "perceived", as in the Vulcans nor the Federation have committed any actual crimes against the people of Romulus. I never even implied crimes. But to the Romulan's point of view, the Neutral Zone itself would been seen as a resentful policy...

Which is why I make the comparison to America's friendly support of Israel, and how that is perceived around the world by less friendly nations and other regimes who ain't thrilled with the association... Any support of Vulcan by the UFP would be seen as antagonistic towards the Romulans, who see the rest of the galaxy thru distrusting eyes (the friend of my enemy is my enemy) Any action that Starfleet makes concerning the Romulans during any encounter since the war would by held as dubious, suspect, or perceived as a threat somehow.

So, I could imagine the lesser populace of Romulus's "closed society" are being fed propaganda against the Federation and specifically the Vulcans. Making any work-a-day Rommie (like truck drivers, garbage men, or deep drill laser miners) racially biased and fundamentally opposed towards any human and Vulcan alliance, and consider the UFP and Starfleet as an enemy of the state and opposing force, creating a society of separatists and racial extremists.

 

[Sharr Khan]

Re: Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/actio

we want to see something more unusual and unexpected.

The things is, fans really don't want this. Its why there are fans who still lament the end of TNG era of films or get bent out of shape that its "a new universe". And its only "new" in very superficial ways. All the parts and pieces are still more or less the same minus one planet. Its more like a Mirror World that is only slightly off kilter. If you didn't know it had changed nothing would seem amiss.

That's why mining established mythology is a likely bet. They would kind of be fools to not go for the things the public is likely already plugged into.

We (the fans) can complain if they use Khan or even Chang or whoever but they know we'll be there regardless. We prove that over and over, such threats of "I won't be there if they do XYorZ" are always empty.

 

[UFO]

Re: Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/actio

we want to see something more unusual and unexpected.

All the parts and pieces are still more or less the same minus one planet. Its more like a Mirror World that is only slightly off kilter. If you didn't know it had changed nothing would seem amiss.

Hmmm. In terms of everyone being there and in the same seats it is, if anything perhaps, a little too similar. Might have be nice to keep Vulcan and swap out Sulu and Chekov? One of them for another woman. Another alien as well perhaps? Maybe then that "universe healing itself" remark wouldn't have seemed so necessary? I mean, its an alternative universe, its not "sick", just different!

The other main difference for me is that unlike TOS, where there is a feeling we are viewing an improved if not a utopain future, STXI felt like "the present in space" to me, particularly were moral/social issues are concerned. Sadly I can't say I think that's a good thing. So I don't mind too much what they do with the rest of the movie (I can stand the current explosion ratio) so long as they fix that issue.

That's why mining established mythology is a likely bet. They would kind of be fools to not go for the things the public is likely already plugged into.

That seems likely when you put it in those terms. It is easier and less risky to experiment with one episode in a TV series. If it works then they can make a movie based on it.