Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/action?

[FarStrider]

Re: Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/actio

Roberto Orci says that "we have a story that we like like and we just have to get cranking it out".

Orci's response to the question of putting Khan in the sequel is to say "log in, vote, speak up, we will listen."

Do the math. This is as transparent as your boss saying to you "thank you for your honesty" - that is, "this is settled and now we're being diplomatic."

...with the conflict resolved by a big KABOOM at the end. Nobody wants to think in the movie theater in August.

Oh, then a big screen version of "The Doomsday Machine" would be perfect.



So much the worse for Trekkies; they'll have to adjust.

I can predict the result of that poll: An overwhelming desire to see Khan vs. Kirk on the big screen again. The results will confound this forum to no end. Orci knows this will be the result, thats why he responded as he has done so he can point to the poll later and silence the naysayers.

You'd be totally wrong about the results of that poll. . . EVERY fan poll on Trekmovie has been overwhelming anti-Khan. . . like nearly 2/3s against. . . I think if Khan is in ST12, it will be as a passing reference. . . besides, listening to fan input about what makes a good "Star Trek" story is like listening to the blind men describe the elephant. . . I think (hope) the writers know that they have a much larger audience than just Trekkies/Trekkers to please now. . .and that Star Trek can't be an insular club anymore if it wants to continue to be relevant.


~FS

 

[BillJ]

Re: Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/actio

I love how haters can't see this rather clear plot point.
Nero did not have a planet killing weapon until Spock returned to the past, moreover it was elder Spock he wanted to "punish",

What clear plot point?

The guy wiped out forty-seven Klingon battle cruisers, Vulcan's planetary defenses and eight Federation starships in the course of a few hours with the Narada. Seems to me he already had all the firepower he needed to wreck havoc on a planetary scale.

Once again... Spock Prime was late, but according to Countdown, was the only one willing to help.

I'll never understand how people who love this movie can't seem to see the simple logic flaws throughout it.

Wiping out ships is not the same as imploding whole planets. Nero's vessels was only stronger because it was from the future. The comic does not count.

The Enterprise from the Prime Universe had the ability to cause devastation on a planetary scale. Are you saying that the Narada couldn't wreak havoc on par with it?

I'd say the comic does count since it has Orci & Kurtzmans names on it.

 

[Sharr Khan]

Re: Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/actio

What clear plot point?

The guy wiped out forty-seven Klingon battle cruisers, Vulcan's planetary defenses and eight Federation starships in the course of a few hours with the Narada. Seems to me he already had all the firepower he needed to wreck havoc on a planetary scale.

Once again... Spock Prime was late, but according to Countdown, was the only one willing to help.

I'll never understand how people who love this movie can't seem to see the simple logic flaws throughout it.

Wiping out ships is not the same as imploding whole planets. Nero's vessels was only stronger because it was from the future. The comic does not count.

The Enterprise from the Prime Universe had the ability to cause devastation on a planetary scale. Are you saying that the Narada couldn't wreak havoc on par with it?

I'd say the comic does count since it has Orci & Kurtzmans names on it.

Not according to Trek Canon standards it does not... on screen is all that matters no matter who writes it.

Oh, I'm sure almost any starship of any era with warp drive could wipe out cities and annoy populations but none could be considered planet killers. I can't recall ever seeing one starship wipe out a whole planet, by which I mean leave not a trace of it behind. And Nero's desire was clearly wholesale genocide something simple bombardment would never have gotten done. Nor would it have gone so unnoticed as his drilling and dropping of the red matter bomb did.

Now once Narada got the red matter she became on par with a planet killer and gave Nero the power to do wholesale, definitive destruction. Up until then its only edge was it was a mining ship from the future which is all you really need to be told to understand the edge it did have.

Nero's waiting is a feature and not a bug of the plot. Though the writers and directors presented it in such a manner that would let viewers figure it out for themselves rather than paint a target on it.

You'd be totally wrong about the results of that poll. . . EVERY fan poll on Trekmovie has been overwhelming anti-Khan. . . like nearly 2/3s against. . . I think if Khan is in ST12, it will be as a passing reference. . . besides, listening to fan input about what makes a good "Star Trek" story is like listening to the blind men describe the elephant. . . I think (hope) the writers know that they have a much larger audience than just Trekkies/Trekkers to please now. . .and that Star Trek can't be an insular club anymore if it wants to continue to be relevant.

They're not going to make a passing reference to a major Star Trek villain, they just aren't. Khan is too much a part of Star Trek mythology to simply reduce to a bit of trivia. If they mention him it will be because he's involved in some manner in the movie.

And perhaps as you say the lesson is they shouldn't be listening to the fans... and give them what they don't realize they really want which will end up being Khan in some form. But don't kid yourself and think he'll be a mere bit of trivia.

Trust me Orci will being citing a poll that indicates Khan's what was wanted. Of course he'll be doing while on a press junket for another blockbuster film so all the fan outrage will be but a microcosm of the over all appeal.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/actio

Nero's waiting is a feature and not a bug of the plot. Though the writers and directors presented it in such a manner that would let viewers figure it out for themselves rather than paint a target on it.

One persons' feature is another persons' bug...

 

[FlapJoy]

Re: Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/actio

I love how haters can't see this rather clear plot point.
Nero did not have a planet killing weapon until Spock returned to the past, moreover it was elder Spock he wanted to "punish",

What clear plot point?

The guy wiped out forty-seven Klingon battle cruisers, Vulcan's planetary defenses and eight Federation starships in the course of a few hours with the Narada. Seems to me he already had all the firepower he needed to wreck havoc on a planetary scale.

Once again... Spock Prime was late, but according to Countdown, was the only one willing to help.

I'll never understand how people who love this movie can't seem to see the simple logic flaws throughout it.

I do think Nero's motivations were pretty clear, no matter how long he waited for Spock, or was rotting in a Klingon prison waiting for Spock, or whatever the reason... he was mentally traumatized by his planet's destruction and obsessed with destroying Spock, if not physically then emotionally, along with the planet Vulcan and would have waited fifty years just like any other Ahab type character. The rest was just fodder, preparing his ultimate plan...

And beyond the Moby Dick comparison, Nero is very reminiscent of the imbalanced and obsessive character Captain Nemo from 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea, which gives us much of Nero's symbolic journey:

-Nemo-> Nero: A name used for the Roman/Romulan connection but works also well as a reference to slightly crazy ship captains of classic literature.

-The Narada-> The Nautilus: Both large and technologically advanced ships, with similar names, that are capable of great destruction of other vessels and entire fleets.

-The Narada itself is shaped a bit like a giant squid as a visually ironic twist to 20,000 Leagues...

All these are clues and connections along with Nero's actions that he is not a stable fellow at a level beyond rational although reasoned thought. Like many other obsessed characters from classic stories and films; hungry for vengeance, but with the patience to wait it out, the thirst for revenge quenched only by hatred, to delay their gratification for as long as necessary...

"Hello, I am Nero Montoya, you killed my planet, prepare to die..."

And I think his hatred for Spock went further than a personal vendetta, and could of been seen as disdain for all of Vulcan kind. Their races have a violent and racist history and Nero could have lived his 24th century life hating the Vulcans and a United Federation that supports their policies (sound familiar?), long before the destruction of Romulus finally sets him off, and gives him a singular Vulcan to blame.

Spock embodies to Nero all the crimes against Romulans, perceived or otherwise, that occurred throughout their two society's long history, not just recent events.

 

[Set Harth]

Re: Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/actio

“I can tell you as we go into it, that our aspirations are for the movie to be even bigger and better than the first one,” Star Trek XII producer Bryan Burk this week told TrekMovie.com. “I don’t mean that just in scope, I mean content and characters and emotionally. We had a lot of conversations about Batman Begins and how that movie kind of re-invented that franchise, and we looked at what The Dark Knight did and how that really ramped it up and they went to a different place with that film, and how those two films keep re-inventing themselves and are not the same thing every time. So we have strong ideas of what we want to do and we are hoping that this one is an even bigger film than the last one.”

It's gonna be the Joker.

Spock... why so serious?

 

[BillJ]

Re: Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/actio

"Hello, I am Nero Montoya, you killed my planet, prepare to die..."

Entertaining, well thought-out post. I still think Nero's motivations make little sense, especially in light of Countdown which Orci & Kurtzman contributed to.

Teach me to read the tie-in material.

 

[FarStrider]

Re: Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/actio

You'd be totally wrong about the results of that poll. . . EVERY fan poll on Trekmovie has been overwhelming anti-Khan. . . like nearly 2/3s against. . . I think if Khan is in ST12, it will be as a passing reference. . . besides, listening to fan input about what makes a good "Star Trek" story is like listening to the blind men describe the elephant. . . I think (hope) the writers know that they have a much larger audience than just Trekkies/Trekkers to please now. . .and that Star Trek can't be an insular club anymore if it wants to continue to be relevant.

They're not going to make a passing reference to a major Star Trek villain, they just aren't. Khan is too much a part of Star Trek mythology to simply reduce to a bit of trivia. If they mention him it will be because he's involved in some manner in the movie.

And perhaps as you say the lesson is they shouldn't be listening to the fans... and give them what they don't realize they really want which will end up being Khan in some form. But don't kid yourself and think he'll be a mere bit of trivia.
Trust me Orci will being citing a poll that indicates Khan's what was wanted. Of course he'll be doing while on a press junket for another blockbuster film so all the fan outrage will be but a microcosm of the over all appeal.

Considering that every sentence of every interview these guys give gets hashed over and blown out of proportion into wild internet rumours, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point until they actually start talking about the plot that they've come up with (which, if last time is any indication, they will keep a secret for as long as possible). However, I will say that making only a passing reference to Khan makes sense to me, just for the fact that he *IS* such a major villain in the Prime Universe. . . what better way to say "We're going in a totally new direction" than to have Khan barely being worth mentioning in passing in the new timeline?

~FS

 

[jgdst]

Re: Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/actio

In answer to the OP's question, I'd like to see something more along the lines of 'the unknown'. I'm not really for a rehash of TWOK, but if they wanted to have a try at doing something along the lines of TMP, I'm more than willing to give that a try. Ideally, it'll be something totally original though.

As I'm getting older, I'm becoming more like Teal'c and thinking one thought over and over: "I do not see why everything must inevitably explode."

For instance, we've just had Inception which I thought was a remarkable film and was probably one of the most original blockbusters I've seen since The Matrix. If they can make Star Trek XII into something that doesn't revolve around shaky handheld cameras, lens flares and explosions, makes you sit and think and holds your interest for a couple of hours, then they'll have a fan in me.

If it's going to be another Kirk v Villian Type A and lots of misplaced comedy moments and nonsensical plots and the aforementioned inevitable explosions then I'll just have to accept it, but it's not why I've been a Trekkie for most of my life.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/actio

If it's going to be another Kirk v Villian Type A and lots of misplaced comedy moments and nonsensical plots and the aforementioned inevitable explosions then I'll just have to accept it, but it's not why I've been a Trekkie for most of my life.

This x 1000

May have to go see Inception based on the good buzz I'm hearing.

 

[jgdst]

Re: Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/actio

^ Thanks

I realise that may have come across like one of the "Trek XI raped my childhood" comments That wasn't my intention, I just personally wasn't a fan of the film and would ideally like to see Trek XII take a whole different approach and take advantage of the potential Trek XI opened up for it.

Just thought I should clear that up in case it came across differently to how I intended, which wasn't to cause offense to those who did enjoy it.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/actio

^ Thanks

I realise that may have come across like one of the "Trek XI raped my childhood" comments That wasn't my intention, I just personally wasn't a fan of the film and would ideally like to see Trek XII take a whole different approach and take advantage of the potential Trek XI opened up for it.

I agree.

I don't think it's necessarily a terrible movie, just not what I'm looking for when I watch Star Trek.

 

[Too Much Fun]

Re: Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/actio

I think it's being too generous to say Nero is one of the big reasons the movie was so successful. In my opinion, it managed to succeed in spite of him. I have problems with the movie, but I did like a lot about it and what I liked most was how the main cast/crew characters were written and played. I think a lot of the audiences who enjoyed the movie felt that way too, and it was the heroes, (much more than the villain) that appealed to them most (kind of the opposite of "The Dark Knight" actually).

 

[Agenda]

Re: Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/actio

I hope it's not Khan, but I wouldn't be surprised. He's probably the only individual Trek villain that has a foothold in popular culture.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/actio

Yep. When people talk about "going back and redoing previous movies" - so what? We're talking about a movie made almost thirty years ago.

 

[UFO]

Re: Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/actio

... what I liked most was how the main cast/crew characters were written and played. ... and it was the heroes, (much more than the villain) that appealed to [audiences] ... most ...

I think whether we like a movie or not is first and foremost a gut reaction thing. We can find rationalisations to support our opinions later! So all other things being equal, how we identify with the cast is way up there on the list emotion wise.

I can appreciate why many older fans were won over by the cast and their interactions. Well apart from Kirk's behaviour, obviously ... and the Uhura/Spock thing .... and lets face it, Scotty was nice enough but clearly a square Pegg in a black hole (nearly!). Apart from that ... .

Oh, and I'm probably way late to the party with this observation, but it does seem appropriate to hire an Australian "skinhead" to play Nero given the name of Khan's ship!

 

[ProwlAlpha]

Re: Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/actio

In all honest, I think Nero's motivations were quite clear and his rational thinking was very skewed to the destruction of Vulcan and the persona that he projected all of his hate was Spock. In training to deal with people, one of the first rule is don't rationalize an irrational being and secondly don't use your rationality in order to under someone else's irrational actions and thought process.

It is safe to assume to no one has lost their entire planet, including the loss of their pregnant wife, so you cannot say Nero's going nuts and destroying Vulcan didnt make or waiting for Spock didnt make sense. I have read cases of vengeful and grief-stricken people become very patient and methodical in extracting their revenge especially to wait for the perfect opportunity or in Nero's case waiting for this person to appear. I felt bad for Nero and I really don't know what I would do if my wife and kids were killed in an explosion and the guy who said he would save them failed to do so.

I would like to see a villain who is charming, kind, thoughtful, and a kind of person that you would give your life for, and the only reason that they are a villain is because his ideals doesn't mesh with the Federation's.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Re: Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/actio

In answer to the OP's question, I'd like to see something more along the lines of 'the unknown'. I'm not really for a rehash of TWOK, but if they wanted to have a try at doing something along the lines of TMP, I'm more than willing to give that a try.

It would be more of a rehash of Space Seen than TWOK since Kirk and crew haven't met Khan yet.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/actio

I say it'll be a totally new story featuring Khan. No Genesis Devices, no Carol Marcus, no Khan putting Kirk in the airlock and suffocating him while the crew watches, no underling slapping Uhura about, no Marla McGivers. Just Khan and his henchmen making trouble - new trouble.

And FWIW, I really liked Nero. His pregnant wife and entire planet died - going insane and wanting to hurt the one you blame like they hurt you is entirely understandable. I felt for the poor guy. And remember that a 25 year wait isn't all that long for a people who live to be 250.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Re: Trek villain vs "the unknown" of space to drive the suspense/actio

I can predict the result of that poll: An overwhelming desire to see Khan vs. Kirk on the big screen again. The results will confound this forum to no end. Orci knows this will be the result, thats why he responded as he has done so he can point to the poll later and silence the naysayers.

I think you're right - the anti-Khan sentiment around here is due to the fundamentalist and highly detailed mentality of this place. To people with a more tangental interest in Star Trek (which is 90% of everyone who'd go see a movie), anything associated with "something fun that I barely remember anyway, so it'll be new to me" will get a thumbs up vote.

I think (hope) the writers know that they have a much larger audience than just Trekkies/Trekkers to please now. . .and that Star Trek can't be an insular club anymore if it wants to continue to be relevant.

Which is exactly why Khan could work for Trek XII. To the 90% of folks who don't know what TrekBBS or TrekMovie are, but will go see Trek XII, Khan isn't an overused, overplayed, hackneyed old element. It's something they barely recognize but just remember well enough that it sounds intriguing.

And yes, Star Trek is not an insular club anymore which is why the idea of the next movie being about Khan is far from a recipe for disaster. Abrams & co just made hundreds of millions by taking "Kirk, Spock, Enterprise" and spinning a new story from old elements. "Khan" is another element in that same category. Why wouldn't they assume that what worked once will work again?

I think it's being too generous to say Nero is one of the big reasons the movie was so successful. In my opinion, it managed to succeed in spite of him.

Yeah, I think Nero was the weakest part of the movie. His motives were generic and had nothing to do with him being a Romulan. He should have had a motive that was unique to being a Romulan, but the problem there is, we don't know what's eating the Rommies well enough that a motive could be devised.

This post gets into some speculation about what that backstory could be, and what kind of stuff needs to be invented for the Rommies, but it's very much just speculation:

And I think his hatred for Spock went further than a personal vendetta, and could of been seen as disdain for all of Vulcan kind. Their races have a violent and racist history and Nero could have lived his 24th century life hating the Vulcans and a United Federation that supports their policies (sound familiar?), long before the destruction of Romulus finally sets him off, and gives him a singular Vulcan to blame.

Spock embodies to Nero all the crimes against Romulans, perceived or otherwise, that occurred throughout their two society's long history, not just recent events.

What "policies" have the Feddies or Vulcan enacted that are so terrible? What crimes have Vulcans committed against Romulans?

My own speculation is that the Rommies' problem with Vulcans is that they exist, and are therefore a repudiation of Romulans. It's not rational, it's more elemental than that. And why not, if Vulcanoids have raging emotions that are so much stronger than humans that they have to jump through hoops to have a functioning society at all? Romulans don't have the discipline of logic to help them keep it together, so the dysfunction spills out in other ways.

All this would need to be delineated for us before it could be used as a motive, which is beyond the scope of Trek XI, being a mere two hours long. But I keep hoping someone will tackle it in the future. Star Trek's biggest piece of unfinished business.