Trek cosmetic surgery--different degrees?

[Nerys Ghemor]

One thing I'm curious about in Trek is the kind of cosmetic surgery we see done at different times on the show.

Just how extensive do you think it gets at different times?

For instance--we have seen that sensors are able to separate different species' lifesigns at times. Given that, why didn't Seska and Raymond Boone show up on sensors as Cardassian?

At other times, it seems less detail is used--such as Riker being turned into a Malcorian (the instant he got on the operating table it was blatantly obvious even to 20th-century level tech that he was no Malcorian).

My PERSONAL guess is that if you're looking for advanced biotech, the next power below the Dominion and the Borg is going to be the Cardassians. Do you think they actually engage in genetic resequencing at times? If not, how are ALL of these powers avoiding tissue rejection? (Which would be especially life-threatening, I suspect, when you're looking at the conversion process, in either direction, between Cardassians and other species.)

The most extreme, of course, that we've ever seen has been Borg assimilation, Dominion genetic manipulation, and Kobali resurrection. We know they definitely do genetic resequencing...are the Cardassians or other powers getting near that?

 

[Timo]

Let's remember how extensively the Feds can manipulate one's genetic makeup in episodes such as "Identity Crisis" or "Genesis". Basically, such godlike powers should suffice for freeing everybody from "bodily needs", in the sense of nobody having to stick with the body he or she or it was born with.

Or then we might argue that both these episodes featured the restoration of DNA structure after alien intervention, and that UFP technology somehow features a "cheat" that can achieve this but cannot transform DNA in any other direction beyond "back to human". "Unnatural Selection" already shows a transporter trick that might be used here.

However, at least some cases of Cardassian agents successfully passing biological tests can probably be attributed to them sabotaging said tests. Seska's cover was blown because her blood didn't pass the tests; Boone's DNA was also confirmed as Cardassian once Bashir got to examining him. Earlier Starfleet doctors had simply been fooled by something like sample swaps, hidden jammers or substitute test subjects, or then been bribed or blackmailed into treason.

It is considered exceptional in "Civil Defense" that the Cardassian security systems would actually scan for a person's DNA. Probably it is far from routine to point one's tricorder at fellow beings and try and establish their species; it takes conscious effort to do so, rather than an accidental swipe with a sensor beam intended to identify a plant sample or something.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Regarding the Cardassian security protocols, somehow I imagine that it would make more sense TO scan for DNA as the Cardassians do--but I suspect some Federation privacy law compelled the Feddies to turn off that particular subroutine when they took over the station. (Which is a load of BS on a MILITARY FACILITY, but whatever.)

I do think that would explain the Cardassians not going the full length to disguise Boone and Seska, though...if they knew the Federation's own laws were going to prevent the Feddies from even looking except if they had other evidence.

But back to the actual technology. Do you think the Federation or Cardassians, or any other power (short of Dominion or Borg) could pull off a transformation as extensive as the Kobali did? (And THAT one was so extensive that only high doses of inaprovaline could reverse some of the effects.) Have we seen evidence of that or no?

 

[Timo]

If the "almost total rewriting of DNA" feat from those two TNG episodes can be done in any direction, and not just in the back-to-human one, then the Feds can modify people at will. Of course, in both cases, the side effect was the people losing their mental identities, which is in sharp contrast with the Kobali technique. Might explain how Dr. Crusher can do it in hours, whereas the Kobali spend months at it.

As for why the Feds don't scan for a person's DNA at every doorstep, it might be more due to their lack of paranoia than to their concern for personal privacy. People might be scanned when they enter service aboard the station or ship, and then assumed to remain the same people even when they move from one room to another. That would make it easier for a fraud to operate, but only if he or she managed to fool the initial inspection, which might well be far more thorough than what the Cardassian door scanners can manage.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

The kinds of alterations you're talking about seem like they're from pathogens of some form--that that's what connects them. Whereas I wonder if the Kobali technique might be done piecemeal, if perhaps the resulting individuals are to some extent still genetic chimeras, OR if they have the technology to somehow remap the brain with the genetic alteration so that the personality remains...

 

[SoM]

Well, Andre Bormanis, the DS9 science consultant, said this about Bashir's alteration of several members of the DS9 crew so they could pose as Klingons in "Apocalypse Rising":

On a different tech front, Bormanis suggests that techniques of surgically altering people so they can pass as aliens of some sort have probably improved since Jim Kirk had his ears bobbed to pass as a Romulan in "The Enterprise Incident." In those days, a simple scan from a tricorder could "see through" superficial alterations. "We saw a great example of that in 'The Trouble With Tribbles'," he says. "The second McCoy scans Arne Darvin, he notices that his heartbeat's this, his blood pressure's that - 'This man is a Klingon!' So clearly, if Sisko's men are going to go into a secured facility, where they have the equivalent of biological metal detectors, you have to be able to literally alter a person at a cellular level. Maybe not down to the very last cell, but internally enough that a standard sensor sweep would not notice that they weren't really Klingons. Of course, if someone did a serious scan, like on a bio-bed, well, forget it.

 

[Meredith]

I wonder if they get any requests from civilians that say "I'm a vulcan born in a human body".

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Well, Andre Bormanis, the DS9 science consultant, said this about Bashir's alteration of several members of the DS9 crew so they could pose as Klingons in "Apocalypse Rising":

On a different tech front, Bormanis suggests that techniques of surgically altering people so they can pass as aliens of some sort have probably improved since Jim Kirk had his ears bobbed to pass as a Romulan in "The Enterprise Incident." In those days, a simple scan from a tricorder could "see through" superficial alterations. "We saw a great example of that in 'The Trouble With Tribbles'," he says. "The second McCoy scans Arne Darvin, he notices that his heartbeat's this, his blood pressure's that - 'This man is a Klingon!' So clearly, if Sisko's men are going to go into a secured facility, where they have the equivalent of biological metal detectors, you have to be able to literally alter a person at a cellular level. Maybe not down to the very last cell, but internally enough that a standard sensor sweep would not notice that they weren't really Klingons. Of course, if someone did a serious scan, like on a bio-bed, well, forget it.

Or might there be some kind of technological means of fooling a scan, for short-term missions? That might make more sense, because doing those kinds of cellular-level changes would have an effect on the health over time, I would think...

 

[Timo]

It seems that agents like Arne Darvin and Ray Boone were completely unaltered beyond cosmetics, so they would have needed technological aids or hefty bribes to get through their initial medical examinations. They weren't indicated to possess aids when they were caught, though - and specialized sensor jammers or fancy temporary bloodwork might well be expected to be short-time solutions, possibly with detrimental effects on the body if longer exposure were attempted. Still, both these agents were able to undertake a long-term mission. Being non-critical personnel both, they wouldn't be the center of SFI attention, of course. OTOH, if an alien agent managed to infiltrate the inner circles of the UFP or SFI by using temporary medical ruses, then one might expect him or her to have gained so much trust that he or she would again be free of close attention for a while.

In contrast, something funny had definitely been attempted with Seska's genetic code, because even the EMH was temporarily fooled in "State of Flux". One might argue that since Seska knew her way through the Voyager's computers, she would have been the ideal agent for hiding her biological nature from the ship's computer-based medical examinations! But of course, Seska wasn't sent to spy on a starship that lacked live medical personnel; she was sent to infiltrate the Maquis, who might in turn have limited means of medical scrutiny overall. Did the Obsidian Order (or Central Command, whichever sent her) overdo the camouflage this time? Or did they calculate that the Maquis would be more wary of Cardassian infiltrators than Starfleet proper would?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I do imagine the Maquis would be very wary of Cardassian infiltrators. I would not be surprised if with them, anyone who went unaccounted for for any significant length of time would get scanned as a matter of course.

My question is this, though. If the alterations weren't extensive, wouldn't Kira have been able to know IMMEDIATELY that she was Bajoran by various bodily cues? We know Cardassian vision is different, that they have different lighting preferences. Different heat preferences, too...yeah, they could've turned down the air conditioning to mess with her head, but then Tekeny would've been cold and since we know that in the end he was NOT in on the ruse, it seems that if they'd done that, he would've pointed it out out of simply not understanding why it was being done. And what about even things like a difference in heartbeat, or even the location of the heart? Yet Kira WAS doubting. I would think that at least SOME of these things would have been known to her as telltales and could've provided a signal that she was still Bajoran. And that is what makes me wonder JUST how far Cardassian biotech went.

 

[SoM]

That might make more sense, because doing those kinds of cellular-level changes would have an effect on the health over time, I would think...

Well, Marritza in DS9: "Duet" had to take drugs to mitigate the degenerative effects of the surgery that turned him into "Gul Darheel" - and that was Cardassian-to-Cardassian, rather than interspecies...

My question is this, though. If the alterations weren't extensive, wouldn't Kira have been able to know IMMEDIATELY that she was Bajoran by various bodily cues? We know Cardassian vision is different, that they have different lighting preferences. Different heat preferences, too...yeah, they could've turned down the air conditioning to mess with her head, but then Tekeny would've been cold and since we know that in the end he was NOT in on the ruse, it seems that if they'd done that, he would've pointed it out out of simply not understanding why it was being done. And what about even things like a difference in heartbeat, or even the location of the heart? Yet Kira WAS doubting. I would think that at least SOME of these things would have been known to her as telltales and could've provided a signal that she was still Bajoran. And that is what makes me wonder JUST how far Cardassian biotech went.

Well, there is the possibility that she did know these things, but was so mindfrakked by the situation that it literally never occurred to her to go "wait a minute...". Or maybe they really did make a Cardassian out of her (the episode's writer wanted to end the episode with Bashir not being able to tell her whether she was originally Bajoran or Cardassian, but that was vetoed because the staff still wanted her to be firmly Bajoran going forward).

 

[Timo]

I'd argue that it's easier to disrupt one's ability to do self-diagnosis than to actually tamper with the variables one can self-diagnose. To the audience, it may seem that Kira in "Second Skin" or e.g. Kirk in "Mark of Gideon" is sober and capable of analytical intro- and extrospection. However, the characters may be drugged to incoherence and ignorance of facts nevertheless. And never mind the brain's inherent capacity for delusion and denial...

Apart from that, it'd probably be relatively easy to wire various mechanisms into Kira's altered body to simulate the effects of being Cardassian (as known to a fighter who has wrestled with and disemboweled a few). A false heartbeat under a false thick skin, trick lenses in the eyes, etc. But it may turn out that the two species aren't so different after all, considering the well-known fact that they effortlessly interbreed...

Although we can probably argue about that, too. It's quite possible that a Cardassian-Bajoran couple needs to undergo extensive medical preparation, such as take proceptives of some sort (every cure can be administered by a hypospray in the Trek universe, after all!), in order to have offspring - and that either party would see the need to take those and (possibly clandestinely/forcibly) have the other take them as well. Seemingly "accidental" mixed-parentage children could be a deliberate project initiated by one parent or the other, for assorted psychological or political purposes.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Myasishchev]

I wonder if they get any requests from civilians that say "I'm a vulcan born in a human body".

Probably would run afoul of anti-Augment laws.

"I want to be three times as strong as I am now, plus have telepathy."
"Would you like laser death eyes with that?"

Of course we do know that sex reassignment surgery is easy, cheap, and doesn't even require a good reason... like it being Friday, and crew from the USS Galaxy's got shore leave. It's actually weird, given their technology, that a substantial fraction of our Federation population hasn't opted for nine inch wangs and/or D-cup breasts. Or maybe they do, but on days off or on vacations to Risa--why carry the burden of huge gazongas permanently, when you can put them on like a dress?

If the alterations weren't extensive, wouldn't Kira have been able to know IMMEDIATELY that she was Bajoran by various bodily cues?

I guess they could have always just told her that they weren't done yet, did the cosmetic stuff first (welcome home!), and she still had Bajoran organs and such. I don't recall if this was mentioned either way, although it makes some sense. On the other hand, it makes terrible sense, because if she still had a Bajoran immune system, she should reject her entire dermis. My mental image of this scene is similar to the last few minutes of Treehouse of Horror V.

On the third hand, maybe they just chemically blocked her immune system, which is common enough iirc in real organ transplant cases.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I'd argue that it's easier to disrupt one's ability to do self-diagnosis than to actually tamper with the variables one can self-diagnose. To the audience, it may seem that Kira in "Second Skin" or e.g. Kirk in "Mark of Gideon" is sober and capable of analytical intro- and extrospection. However, the characters may be drugged to incoherence and ignorance of facts nevertheless. And never mind the brain's inherent capacity for delusion and denial...

Given that Kira only got to the point of incoherence after extensive torture, but always seemed lucid at every other time, I do not think she was given psychoactive drugs. As to what the injections she was getting might have been...

Apart from that, it'd probably be relatively easy to wire various mechanisms into Kira's altered body to simulate the effects of being Cardassian (as known to a fighter who has wrestled with and disemboweled a few). A false heartbeat under a false thick skin, trick lenses in the eyes, etc.

That's possible...seems difficult in our world, but it MIGHT be doable...

But it may turn out that the two species aren't so different after all, considering the well-known fact that they effortlessly interbreed...

Although we can probably argue about that, too. It's quite possible that a Cardassian-Bajoran couple needs to undergo extensive medical preparation, such as take proceptives of some sort (every cure can be administered by a hypospray in the Trek universe, after all!), in order to have offspring - and that either party would see the need to take those and (possibly clandestinely/forcibly) have the other take them as well. Seemingly "accidental" mixed-parentage children could be a deliberate project initiated by one parent or the other, for assorted psychological or political purposes.

Which is actually a stunt I think Dukat pulled twice.

If the alterations weren't extensive, wouldn't Kira have been able to know IMMEDIATELY that she was Bajoran by various bodily cues?

I guess they could have always just told her that they weren't done yet, did the cosmetic stuff first (welcome home!), and she still had Bajoran organs and such. I don't recall if this was mentioned either way, although it makes some sense. On the other hand, it makes terrible sense, because if she still had a Bajoran immune system, she should reject her entire dermis. My mental image of this scene is similar to the last few minutes of Treehouse of Horror V.

On the third hand, maybe they just chemically blocked her immune system, which is common enough iirc in real organ transplant cases.

And THAT may have been the "desegranine" injection right there: an immunosuppressant (perhaps a targeted one to prevent a response to the skin and ridges, but not suppress it all).

And I also would not be surprised if they did tell her that further surgery would've been coming. (Might even have been planned as further torture/mindfrak, to keep on changing her closer and closer to Cardassian, if she kept resisting.)