TOS Chronology

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by MAGolding, May 4, 2020.

  1. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Maybe Teller was a nickname? We know the real reason for the slip but just maybe..?
    JB
     
  2. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Off duty, Angela was the ship's fortune teller, she could frequently be found in the main crew lounge telling fortunes using tarot cards and reading palms.
    In addition to being the ship's fortune teller, Angela was also the ship's slut.
    Or ion engines. Low acceleration with ultimate high speed, also relatively small fuel tanks.
    Here McCoy is not saying the Khan had been sleeping for two centuries, McCoy is confirming that this is what Khan heard.
    Given world events in the 1960's, to the viewing audience this would have sounded like a reasonable possibility.

    Or the Enterprise was originally heading to starbase twelve, and were continuing on it's previous course. If the Enterprise was heading to starbase twelve for a reason, picking up Khan wouldn't have changed that reason.
    The Botany Bay had artificial gravity, either on it's own or from the Enterprise. I don't think special boots wore by the officers could account for what we were seeing.

    The Mars probe seen in a Voyager episode didn't have AG, so maybe nation that built the Botany Bay had AG technology, but decades later the nation(s) that built the Mars Probe didn't. Cochrane's warpship in FC (I think) didn't have AG.
    What is "SS" please?
    I believe Spock was wrong on a Earth historical fact (hardly the first time) and McCoy was correcting him.

    It would be like Spock wrongly referring to the American Revolutionary War and McCoy correcting him that it was the Peloponnesian War.
    I believe from the dialog it specifically wouldn't have been a Earth flights. Other species could have been using that sector like a rush hour freeway.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
  3. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    True, but Kirk does explicitly say later that Khan has "two hundred years of catching up to do". Even if Khan had experienced time dilation on the BB and only slept for 2 centuries in his time frame, Kirk here is specifically referencing the number of centuries that Khan is out of sync with - and that apparently is 2 centuries as well.

    There was also AG in the cryopod vehicle seen in TNG's The Neutral Zone which dated from the 1990s
     
  4. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Rounding off for convenience? Easier than repeatedly saying "two hundred and sixty-nine years." Assuming Kirk even knows the exact number.

    We know the year Khan was thrown from power, but when did the Botany Bay actually launch? Years after possibly?
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
  5. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    WE know from TWOK:
    KHAN: ...the Enterprise picked up the Botany Bay, lost in space in the year nineteen hundred and ninety-six, myself and the ship's company in cryogenic freeze?
    It's possible, but unusual for someone to round off 270 years to 200. 300 would be more common
     
  6. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Or it wasn't important enough for Kirk to care?

    Kirk told Cochrane that "we" are on a thousand planets. Personally I wouldn't hold Kirk to that figure, at that moment in time, being exactly 1000.00 planets.
     
  7. MAGolding

    MAGolding Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    In broadcast order "A taste of Armageddon" is the 23rd episode of TOS, broadcast on February 23 1967.

    Kirk actually says "star cluster NGC three twenty one". That could be NGC 3-20-1 or 3201, but is most likely NGC 321.

    In the New General Catalog of nebulas - at that time "nebula" was a general term including all sorts of actual nebulas in our galaxy, as well as open or galactic star clusters in our galaxy, globular star clusters in our galaxy, and external galaxies, etc. - NGC 321 was actually later discovered to be an external galaxy.

    So far I haven't been able to find any distance figure for NGC 321, so I guess that it is at least tens of millions of light years away. Since it was discovered as early as 1864, it is probably not very faint and thus distant, so tens or hundreds of millions of light years may be sufficiently far.

    NGC 3201 is a lot closer.

    Most globular star clusters are outside the galactic disc, so they would probably have to cross the galactic barrier to reach NGC 3201. If it took less than one year for the Enterprise to reach NGC 3201 at a distance of 16,300 light years, the average speed would be over 16,300 times the sped of light. Thus if Voyager or other TNG era ships could travel at least 16,300 times the speed of light, it would take them only 4.29 years to travel 70,000 light years, 4.9 years to travel 80,000 light years, and 5.52 years to travel 90,000 light years, instead of the many decades estimated to travel those distances in TNG "The Price", DS9, and VOY.

    One guess is that explorers found some sort of space warp which led from the region near Earth to NGC 3201 bypassing the distance of 16,300 light years, or to NGC 321, bypassing the tens or hudnreds of millions of light year to NGC 321.

    Another option is that NGC 321 in "A Taste of Armageddon" is what is called a galactic star cluster or an open star cluster, much smaller than a globular star cluster and inside the disc of the galaxy.

    So my best guess is that star cluster NGC 321 is an open star cluster, one comparitively new to Earth and already lnown oby other names and catalog numbers, but in the erao of TOS known by its number in a cataloge that hasn't been created yet. NGC could stand of New Galactographical Compendiu, or Nordstrom's General Catalog, or Nakamura's Galactic Clusters, or the Neville-Gunderson-Chang catalog, or something.

    When they received code 7-10 from Eminiar VII, Ambassador Fox orders Kirk to proceed there immediately.

    So apparently Federation ships often travel through the quadrant of space, however large a TOS era quadrant might be, that contains star cluster 321, and apparently enough of those ships have met disasters than thousands of lives among their passengers and crew have died, which could have been prevented in unexplained ways if the Federation had a treaty port in star cluster NGC 321.

    .

    Kirk beams down with a landing party and is met by Mea 3, who leads them to the room of Anan 7 and the high council

    Anan 7 says that they can't welcome the Earthlings because they are at war.

    If Eminiar VIII has been at war with Eminiar III or Vendikar for "five hundred years", possibly for 400 to 600 years, and if Vendikar was advanced enough to make war with Eminar III at the star of the war, it should have taken centuries to become that powerful after first being colonized.It is very easy to believe that Eminiar VII has had manned interplanetary flight for a thousand years.

    If there are one to three million civilian casualties on Eminiar VII per year,for 400 to 600 years, that adds up to four hundred million to one billion, eight hundred million total casualties on Eminiar VII, not counting those on Vendikar. Casualties are not the same thing as fatalities, and Anan 7 never explains whether some of the casualties are merely wounded..

    Much later in the episode:

    Kirk seems to have estimated that the average number of deaths on Eminiar VII was half way between one million and three million, and thus one and a half million per year, and then multiplied it by two, assuming the number of deaths on Vendikar was the same as on Eminiar VII, to get a total presumably of one billion, five hundred million total deaths so far.

    In another scene:

    So the total population of Eminiar and Vendikar should be somewhere between 100,000,000 and 1,000,000,000 persons. If the average age at death in those advanced societies is somewhere between 50 and 100, and their populations are static, the total deaths by natural causes would between 1,000,000 and 20,000,000 persons, most of them old persons.

    If Kirk destroyed civilization on those two planets, their populations would plummet. And the survivors would live primitive backwards lives, with no modern medicine and withutmodern life expectancy. Up until about one or two hundred years ago, the majority of all humans who were born died in early childhood, before they were more than a few years old, many decades younger than the majority of people in modern advanced societies died. Tens of thousands of little childrenwould die every year, for century after century, millennia after millennia, for tens or hundreds of thousands of years until and unless civilzation was rebuilt.

    How about telling Mr. Scott that the Eminiarians report that planet Vendikar or Eminiar III is attacking Eminiar VIII with fusion bombs materialized over their targets, and to turn on the shields, move away from Eminiar VII, and try to contact Vendikar and explain that they are not involved in the war? How about telling Scott that Anan 7 said that they were in danger as long as they orbited Eminiar VIII?

    So the USS Valiant was destroyed at Eminiar VII.

    Anan says:

    There are 1,440 minutes in 24 hours. If an Eminian disintegration machine takes one minute to disintierate someone on average, it would take 69.44 disintegration machines to disintegrate 100,000 people in 24 hours. And people seem to have been arriving at disintegration machines quite irregularly so it doesn't look like the disintegration machines are used at full capacity.

    Anan 7 didn't warn Kirk very well. He could have sent a message to Kirk saying that Eminiar 7 was at war with another planet and any ship that assumed orbit around Eminiar VII would be a legitimate target for the enemy to attack and destroy.

    Mea 7 later tells Kirk:

    So the attack should have been about noon of that day.

    So that implies that the computerized part of the war has going on for about 450 to 500 years.

    Anan 7 tries to lure the crew down to the surface with a false message from Kirk. Spock uses telepathic influence to lure a guard into the Room. They search the city., see people step into a disintegration machine, and stop Mea 3 from entering. Is it already noon next day, or was she going to her death long before the deadline? They destroy the disintegration machine.

    Anan 7 orders the planetary disruptor banks to fire on the Enterprise at full power.

    The ship's shields are up and they withstand the attack from Eminiar VII. Ambassador Fox orders no retaliation and tells Uhura to contact Eminiar VII.

    In their hiding place, Mea 3 says:

    So almost but not quite 24 hours have passed between stardate 3192.5, shortly before those 24 hours began, and an unknown length of time after stardate 3193.0. Thus a period of 0.5 stardate units must be less than 24 hours long, and there must be less than 48 hours in a stardate unit. .

    So the destruction of one disintegration chamber causes them to fall far behind on their quota of 500,000?

    Anan tells Ambassdor Fox the attack was a mistake, and invites him down to the planet, then orders the planetary disruptor banks to destroy the Enterprise the moment it lowers its shields. Mr. Scott refuses to lower the shields.

    Kirk visits Anan 7 but is captured. Ambassador Fox and and aide beam down, are welcomed by Anan 7, and then seized.

    Spock calls the ship and says that if anyone beams down they will be killed. Scott says Fox beamed down 2 minutes earlier. Spock orders Scott to take the Enterprise to extreme phaser range and await further orders. I wonder why Spock didn't order Scott to try to open diplomatic negotiations with the Vendikar government.

    Spock rescues Ambassador Fox & his aide from disintegration chamber in the nick of time and destroys it..

    Anan 7 calls the Enterprise.

    So this should be nearly 24 hours after the attack. Were people really being killed by disintegrator station twelve fast enough to kill thousands in only 24 hours? Mr. Scott calls, abut 15 minutes after Anan 7 called the ship.

    I think that this is all the chronological information in the episode.
     
  8. Spockskin

    Spockskin Commodore Premium Member

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    It appears that both Eminiar Seven and Vendikar have stagnated in their real weaponry and technology, and possibly totally abandoned space flight. Their current level of technology seems to be slightly below the current level of the Federation based on planetary weaponry (phasers out range their low orbit "disruptor banks") and no city defensive shields (as seen on Federation penal facilities), but perhaps better in transporter technology at one time. Maybe the disruptor banks are a point defense system to destroy incoming ships and missiles in orbit. When their transporter technology evolved to out range the disruptor banks, then they negotiated their treaty. My head cannon: Eminiar Seven and Vendikar fake-beam fake-tricobalt fusion bombs directly between planets to destroy targets either over cities or into orbit (no ship or missile delivery systems are mentioned). They only attack each other periodically when in direct line-of-sight planetary alignments. With Vendikar being the third planet and I assume closer to the sun than Eminiar Seven (I assume on the seventh planet), then they rotate around the sun to be in direct sight (beaming line-of-sight) up to several times per year. Also, I assume beaming cannot pass though solid planets and moons, so, they can only attack surface targets facing the attacking planet, so, they have to coordinate their attacks for the optimum alignment. Both planets have agreed upon a limited number of attacks per cycle. This may be based on some perceived power generating capability by each planet to conduct interplanetary beaming. Because beaming is the limiting factor, they need to get the biggest bang for the buck, so, they use fake-tricobalt fusion bombs in their attacks rather than use smaller hydrogen fusion bombs. For example, in the episode, only two attacks occurred, one over the capital city and one against the Enterprise.
     
  9. diankra

    diankra Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Spock is being inaccurate here, to make the point. V2 didn't have the capacity to carry an a-bomb, but the enhanced rockets Von Braun was developing were pretty close.
     
  10. MAGolding

    MAGolding Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    In broadcast order "This Side of Paradise", broadcast on 2 March 1967, was the 24th episode of TOS.

    The Enterprise approaches Omicron Ceti III. Since Omicron Ceti is also called Mira, the planet could be called Mira III.

    So this implies that possibly Bertold rays were discovered, and detected coming from Omicron Ceti III before teh Sandoval group left Earth. In which case I think that the parents in the group were rather evil to risk the lives of their children there. Or possibly Berthold rays weren't discovered yet when the Sandoval group left, but previous explorers or colonists had died on Omicron Ceti III.

    Spock says that SAndoval's group were on Omicron Ceti III for three years.

    The landing party beams down to a farm like settlement.

    Numerous episodes suggest that warp factors should be much faster than the official TOS warp scale. But Kirk's statement that it took a year for the colonists to reach Omicron Ceti III from Earth puts a limit to how much faster TOS warp factors could be than the official numbers.Assume that Kirk would have said the trip took one year if it took between 0.5 and 2.0 years.

    In the official scale, warp factor one 1 is 1 times the speed of light, or c, warp 2 is 8 c, warp 3 is 27 c, warp 4 is 64 c, warp 5 is 125 c, and warp 6, the fastest normal speed of the Enterprise, is 216 c.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mira

    Assuming that Mira is between 200 and 330 light years from Earth, and that the voyage lasted sometime between 0.5 and 2.0 years, the average speed during the voyage would appear to be between 100 c and 660 c. 100 c would be 0.46 of warp 6 to 100 times warp 1, while 660 c would be 3 times warp 6 to 660 times warp 1.

    If the colonists were on Omicron ceti III for 3 years, and spent a year travelling there, they must have left Earth about 4 years earlier.

    And:

    So Sandoval's group knew that at least two other exploring and/or colonizing expeditions to that planet of death had been wiped out, but still came.

    So Spock was on Earth, 6 years earlier, presumably while serving under Captain Pike as part of the crew of the Enterprise.

    So those men were aged from 19 to 55 when the expedition left Earth.

    So how can the plants thrive without the animal part of a balanced ecosystem. The trees, for example, seem far too large to have been planet only three years ago. Possibly Omicron Ceti became emitting Berthold rays and killed off all native animal life (and possibly a lot of the native plant life) only recently.

    The colony has been there for three years without any visitors they could have sold crops to. How long can they keep harvested crop stored before they rot? What is the plan for a normal agricultural colony?

    So Starbase 27 should be the closest to Omicron Ceti.

    So Komack might be the commander of the sector that includes Omicron Ceti and Starbase 27.

    On Omicron Ceti III:

    Back on the starship:

    When Kirk tries to goad Spock to anger:

    again Leila says that she knew Spock 6 years ago:

    When Sandoval is free of the spores:

    So apparently the colonists originally planned to produce far more crops than they needed, presumably to sell to other planets. And again they are said to have been there for 3 years.

    From what I seen they apparently spend less than a day on the surface of Omicron Ceti III during the episode. So the 0.4 stardate units between stardate 3417.3 and stardate 3417.7 should be less than 24 hours and less than the 12 hours of an average period of daylight on Earth, unless the days are longer on omicron Ceti III.. So thee should be fewer than 60 hours in a stardate unit, and probably fewer than 30 hours.

    Between stardates 3417.3 and 3417.5, McCoy says:
    So there seem to be atleast 2 hours in less than 0.2 stardate units. Thus there seem to be at least 10 hours per stardate unit.

    So in "this Side of Paradise" a stardate unit seems to be between 10 and 30 hours long.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2020
  11. MAGolding

    MAGolding Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    In broadcast order "The Devil in the Dark", broadcast on 9 March 1967, was the 25th episode of TOS.

    Chief engineer Vanderberg leads a group of men, a guard named Sam goes off watch and Schmitter takes Sam's place. Schmitter says the creature has already killed 50 men. Schmitter asks if the Enterprise might get there in the next four hours, apparently the length of his watch..

    Soon after Vanderberg and his party leave, the creature attacks Schmitter. Hearing Schmitter's scream, they race back to find Schmitter "burned to a crisp".

    If Schmitter was right after the creature killing exactly 50 men, and if he was the last victim, that would make 51 victims so far. Schmitter's hope the Enterprise could get there during his 4 hour watch two days earlier seems really futile. When McCoy returns he confirms that Schmitter was the last victim.

    The guard outside the reactor room is killed by the creature.

    So apparently the colony gets power from a fission nuclear reactor instead of a fusion power generator. But it shold be possible to avoid either death by asphyxiation or death by radiation poisoning. Just arrange a way to transfer power from the Enterprise to the power mains in the colony. In "Encounter at Farpoint" the Enterprise-D will transfer power to Farpoint station. In "The Cage" the Enterprise transmitted power down to a laser cannon on the surface. So the Enterprise should still have the capacity to transfer power down to Janus VI.

    Or if that wouldn't work, send a shuttlecraft down to the surface near the entrance to the colony and attach cables from its power plant to the power mains of the colony.

    P is the symbol for Phosphorus, Xe is the symbol for Xenon, and K is the symbol for Potassium. So possibly a PXK pergium reactor uses the as yet undiscovered fissionable element pergium, with Phosphorus, Xenon, and Potassium playing important roles. Or maybe PXK is the name of the company that made them. But even though pergium is still valuable and used in energy producing reactors, PXK type reactors are very outdated and there are no spare parts for them anymore.

    Presumably Scott's jury rigged pump fails before the 48 hours are reached or passed.

    If the creature has enough engineering knowledge to select the most critical piece of equipment in the reactor, and knows how critical the reactor is to the colony, doesn't that prove that the creature is an intelligent being, a person, and probably the, or one of the, rightful owners of the planet? Doesn't that mean that by Federation law they have to negotiate with the creature instead of trying to kill it?

    They begin searching on level 23, where the Silcon nodules were found. A security guard is killed by the creature.
    The creature appears, and Kink and spook shoot off a piece of the creature's armor. Spock detects only one silicon-based life form within a hundred miles and deduces that it might be the last of its species.

    I wonder if anyone has ever figured out how Spock calculate those odds.

    So presumably this is less than 48 hours after Scott got it working.

    Kirk and Spock meet the creature.

    Does Spock mean that Kirk has learned though books or other sources about that technique, or that Kirk learned aobut it because Spock sued it in "Dagger of the Mind" and/or in "A Taste of Armageddon", which would make "The Devil in the Dark" a sequel to one or both of those episodes?

    After Spock's first contact with the Horta, Kirk calls for Dr. McCoy. Spock Mind melds with the Horta, and tells Kirk where to find the pump.. McCoy arrives and goes to work.

    If transporters can reach down to level 23, they should be able to reach the colony. They should have some way to supply power to the colony's life support systems.

    Surprisingly the pump is in pretty good shape. instead of being totally destroyed. Kirk, Spock and the miners make a deal with the Horta and McCoy cures her.

    Since the reactor has not yet gone supercritical and poisoned the colony with radioactive debris, it must be less than about 10 hours after Scott's makeshift pump failed, which should have been less than 48 hours after Scott assembled it. So this should probably be less than 58 hours or two and a half days since stardate 3196.1. Unfortunately stardate 3196.1 is the only stardate given in the episode.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2020
  12. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Why do you call it that? Yes it was mentioned in The Making of Star Trek, however never in a episode in dialog.

    It's a scale sure, but how is it official? In many episodes it plainly doesn't work.
     
  13. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Are we sure that the Enterprise didn't establish normal gravity and life support conditions on the Botany Bay before Kirk and crew beamed over first?
    JB
     
  14. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    We are not.
     
  15. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The design of the BB interior strongly suggests a permanent AG environment though
     
  16. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The sleeper units are two tiered, there are no ladders to gain access to the upper units. No gravity would make getting into those units easier.
     
  17. diankra

    diankra Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Ummh, I'd see it just as terminology. Is it World War 2 or the Great Patriotic War? Depends where you grew up.
     
  18. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    True, but the top units are not that high off the deck and the bottom bunk has a double platform (when extended) which would be suitable for standing on
    http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x22hd/spaceseedhd116.jpg
     
  19. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The American Civil War vs. the War of Northern Agression.

    I heard it both ways in elementay school.
     
  20. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The galaxy got a lot bigger between the original series and the later ones it seems!
    JB