TOS Chronology

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by MAGolding, May 4, 2020.

  1. MAGolding

    MAGolding Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Oh, I love this kind of quibble.

    When someone says they were are thirteen years old they usually mean that today could be anywhere between their thirteenth birthday and the day before their fourteenth birthday.

    Thus it is equivalent to saying that the day when they were born was sometime between thirteen years and no days ago and fourteen years minus one day ago..

    So if someone is equally as precise when saying that something happened thirteen years ago, they mean it happened sometime between thirteen years and zero days ago and fourteen years minus one day ago.

    What you are claiming is that when Spock says that something happened thirteen years ago, They mean that it happened thirteen years and zero days plus or minus half a year, ago, and thus happened between twelve and half years and thirteen and a half years ago.

    But another way to look at it would be that when Spock says that something happened thirteen years ago they mean that it happened thirteen and a half years, plus or minus half a year, ago, and thus that it happened sometime between exactly thirteen years ago and exactly fourteen years ago, which is very close to how I interpret thirteen years when spoken by someone as Spock.

    Another way to look at it would be that when someone says something happened thirteen years ago, they mean that it happened thirteen and a half years ago, plus or minus one year, and thus sometimes between exactly twelve and a half years ago and exactly fourteen and a half years ago.

    Another way to look at it would be that when someone says something happened thirteen years ago, they mean that it happened thirteen and a half years ago, plus or minus one and a half years, and thus sometimes between exactly twelve years ago and exactly fifteen years ago.

    Fans may wonder when Nimbus III, the Planet of Galactic Peace, was established relative to "Balance of Terror", and when "Space Seed" happened retative to "Balance of Terror" .

    In Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan both Khan and Kirk say they haven't seen each other for fifteen years, presumably since "Space Seed".

    I say that the most reasonable way to interpret it is that the time interval is somewhere between fifteen years and sixteen years minus one day.

    other persons might interpret it as fifteen years, plus or minus half a year, or somewhere between fourteen and a half years and fifteen and a half years.

    Others might interpret it as fifteen and a half years, plus or minus half a year, or somewhere between exactly fifteen years and exactly sixteen years.

    Others might interpret it as fifteen and a half years, plus or minus a year, or somewhere between fourteen and a half years and sixteen and a half years.

    Others might interpret it as fifteen and a half years, plus or minus a year and a half, or somewhere between exactly fourteen years and exactly seventeen years.

    In Star trek V: The Final Frontier Caitlin Dar says that Nimbus III was established by the Federation, Klingon, and Romulan governments twenty years earlier, which might have been after "Balance of Terror" and before "Space Seed".

    I say that the most reasonable way to interpret it is that the time interval is somewhere between twenty years and twenty one years minus one day.

    other persons might interpret it as twenty years, plus or minus half a year, or somewhere between nineteen and a half years and twenty and a half years.

    Others might interpret it as twenty and a half years, plus or minus half a year, or somewhere between exactly twenty years and exactly twenty one years.

    Others might interpret it as twenty and a half years, plus or minus a year, or somewhere between nineteen and a half years and twenty one and a half years.

    Others might interpret it as twenty and a half years, plus or minus a year and a half, or somewhere between exactly nineteen years and exactly twenty two years.

    Even the loosest interpretations don't get fifteen years and twenty years to overlap. Maybe when Caitlin Dar said "twenty" years she meant twenty years plus or minus five years, or somewhere between fifteen and twenty five years. That would allow some possible overlap.

    Or maybe Dar used years which were about three quarters as long as the years that Kirk and Khan used, thus amounting to the same period of time.

    And maybe the time between the establishment of Nimbus III and "Space Seed" and the time between Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan and Star trek V: The Final Frontier add up to explain the discrepancy.

    Or maybe some combination of the above theories explains the discrepancy.
     
  2. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Less.

    The wedding was in the morning and McCoy said "this morning." then maximum of 18 hours. If the wedding was at 0600 hours (or later) and McCoy's words were prior to 0000 (mid-night), then it would be "this morning."

    After mid-night then it would be yesterday morning, or just yesterday.
     
  3. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The establishment of Nimbus Three must have been after the television series ended as before that the Klingon and Romulan governments were openly hostile to the Federation and earth in particular! And strangely enough the Romulan/Klingon alliance ended around that time!
    The film was made in 1989 and that was twenty years after the cancellation so that works too! :techman:
    JB
     
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  4. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    As a single, throwaway line we can easily suppose that Caitlin Dar was using Romulan years, not Terran.

    Alternatively it might suggest that the initial olive branches to develop Nimbus-III were first offered 5 years before BoT, even if those initial talks were slow to develop anything
     
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  5. BK613

    BK613 Commodore Commodore

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    @MAGolding
    Using birthdays is the wrong mental model. With birthdays, you are starting at a fixed point and upping the odometer of your age as you pass the anniversary of your birth. IOW, counting birthdays is about passing milestones, not approximating the passage of time.

    It is clear from reading your wall of words that you did not understand what I said.

    What i said was that arguably the most common method of approximating the passage of time (in the context of what we are discussing) is to take the current calendar year and subtract off another calendar year to get an approximate passage of time (or alternatively, subtract off a passage of time to get a calendar year.) Having arrived at that approximation, treat events that occur in that previous year as all happening x number of years ago.

    Examples (as May 25, 2020)
    Approximations (2020 -13 = 2007):
    1. The iPhone was released 13 years ago.
    2. The Big Bang Theory debuted 13 years ago.
    3. The first female Speaker of the House was elected 13 years ago.
    4. The live action Transformers was released 13 years ago.
    5. Alvin and the Chipmunks was released 13 years ago.

    Actual time difference*:
    1. June 29, 2007. 12 years, 10 months, 3 weeks, 5 days
    2. Sept 24, 2007. 12 years, 8 months, 1 day
    3. Jan. 4, 2007. 13 years, 4 months, 3 weeks
    4. July 5, 2007. 12 years, 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days
    5. Dec 12, 2007. 12 years, 5 months, 1 week, 6 days.
    *(using Windows Calculator's date function)

    edits for clarity
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
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  6. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Offered to whom? Not the federation who have had no communication for a century.
     
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  7. MAGolding

    MAGolding Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    In broadcast order "Shore Leave", broadcast on December 29, 1966, was the 15th episode of TOS and about halfway through the first season..

    As they investigate the new planet, Spock says:

    Aboard the Enterprise Kirk makes his first log:

    A later in that scene McCoy calls to report the white rabbit and the girl, and Kirk decides to beam down to the planet.

    We may wonder which, if any, of the previous episodes happened during that three month period.

    Sulu finds a revolver which he describes:

    Sulu means either a rather more precise two centuries, the literal meaning of a couple of centuries, or a more vague somewhere between one century and ten centuries.

    So when were such revolvers last made?

    The Colt Army Special revolver of 1908 was renamed the Colt Official Police revolver in 1927, firing the caliber .38 special cartridge. Making of the Colt Official Police revolver was discontinued in 1969. Thus some fans might consider Sulu's words to mean that "Shore Leave" happens about 2169, plus or minus a number of decades, perhaps as much as a century, to allow for normal human vagueness. Other fans might consider Sulu's words to mean that "Shore Leave" might happen sometime between 2069 and 2969.

    Since Sulu mentioned a "police special", one might assume that the dialog means that the gun Colt Army Special/Colt Official Police revolver, is the "police special". However, Memory Alpha refers to the pistol in "Shore Leave" as a .38 Police Special, and gives a link to the Wikipedia article on the .38 Special, which is the name of a cartridge produced by smith & Wesson from 1898 to the present.

    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/.38_police_special

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Special

    Memory Alpha also has a link to a site about weapons in TOS.

    http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_The_Original_Series

    It describes a pistol used in "Patterns of Force" as a Cold Police Positive revolver. and it describes the pistols in "Shore Leave" and "Tomorrow is Yesterday" as Smith & Wesson Model 10:

    The Smith & Wesson Model 10 was produced from 1899 to the present.

    So some fans might deduce that "Shore Leave" would thus happen sometime after about 2220, depending on when the Model 10 will be discontinued, while others might think that "Shore Leave: would thus happen sometime between about 2120 and 3020, or after, depending on when the Smith & Wesson Model 10 is discontinued.

    But I am uncertain what model of revolver was actually shown in "Shore Leave". And I expect that people will differ whether they think the gun in "Shore Leave" was the one mentioned in the script or the one shown on screen. Of course the creators of "Shore Leave", and the viewers, in 1966 could not possibly predict when the Colt Police or the Smith & Wesson Model 10 would be discontinued in the future. And of course It is possible that "Shore Leave" happens in an alternate universe where manufacture of those revolvers have been or will be discontinued at different dates than in our universe, a date which we can't possibly know.

    Kirk is reminded of his time at Starfleet Academy:

    As an upperclassman in a presumably four year service Academy, Finnegan would have been one, two, or three years ahead of Kirk.

    Finnegan appears, and challenges Kirk to a fight. Kirk later meets an old girlfriend, Ruth:

    So if Kirk got the decimal points correct, there were 0.5 stardate units between 3025.3 and 3025.8. If I was a member of a landing party there would be only so long I could stay on the surface of the planet before I had to beam back up to the ship for a meal or to use the bathroom, etc., I guess people will differ on how long half a stardate unite could be without some people beaming back to the ship by now. I can't help thinking that in "Shore Leave" half a stardate unit should be a lot less than half a 24 hour day.

    After transporter power is lost, and McCoy is "killed":

    Spock begins to formulate a theory

    So Kirk may have known Ruth while he was at the Academy, as well as knowing Finnegan.

    Finnegan reappears, and Kirk chases him.

    Finnegan was at least one year ahead of Kirk at the Academy, and Kirk remembers Finnegan as being 20 years old.

    It is normal to enter a Us four year service academy aged 18 and graduate and be commissioned age 22. However the age range for entering such academies is 17 to 22, so someone could graduate age 21 to 26. But it is possible to take longer to graduate, and sometimes cadets are graduated early because of a war. Thus a relative of mine entered West point on his 17th birthday and was graduated early about 3 weeks after his 20th birthday, and was not the youngest graduate in the 20th century. Thus Finnegan could have graduated age 20 instead of flunking out.

    A plebe is a first year cadet, so Finnegan probably began bullying Kirk when Kirk was in his first year. Kirk says he isn't a plebe and today is fifteen years later. Kirk could mean fifteen years after Finnegan stopped bullying him because of expulsion or graduation, but it seems more probable to me that Kirk means that his Plebe year year ended fifteen years ago,

    And you may remember a discussion about how long a stated "thirteen years" or "fifteen years" might be, in posts numbers 55, 60, 61, & 65.

    In my opinion, fictional characters should always say that which is literally true when describing important aspects of their fictional setting, much more often than real people, because what fictional characters say about their fictional setting is an important source of information about it for the readers or viewers. The only exceptions should be for plots involving the characters being in error or lying and the inaccurate nature of their statements being revealed to the audience and/or to other characters.

    So when characters say an event was X number of years in the past, and X is a small number of years within their lifespan, it should be literally true that the span of time was between exactly X years and exactly X plus 1 years. Thus I think that the "fifteen years" in "Shore Leave" should be sometime between exactly 15 years and exactly 16 years.

    With numbers in the hundreds, we can expect characters to speak more vaguely. If a character says something happened three centuries earlier, I will count that as being accurate if it happened between two hundred and four hundred years ago, and not narrow down the possible range to between three hundred years and three hundred and one years.

    In the case of Star Trek Chronology, it would be impossible to find a consistent era for a series if time spans in the centuries are not interpreted so loosely.
     
  8. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The revolver was obviously a "hollywood gun." It could fire as many times as you pulled the trigger, without needing to be re-loaded.
    Kirk should have pulled his phaser and stunned Finnegan.
     
  9. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I was thinking about covert, behind the scenes kind of communications. Nothing that a starship of the line would have any knowledge of until long after the fact, when Nimbus-III had been established.
     
  10. ChallengerHK

    ChallengerHK Captain Captain

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    Obviously this is frustrating from the standpoint of a researcher, but as a writer and an entertainment consumer I wouldn't have it any other way. It's much more important to me that the characters be natural and believable. I can say with certainty that I don't keep track of time that way. Just last week I was interviewing for a new job and they asked me how much experience I had. Having not interviewed for several years, I said something like "More than 20. Let me see ... [quick math] ... 22 years." In general, it's just not necessary for the average person to keep track of things like that to the decimal point, and if they express themselves that way, they tend to have that Spock-like precision that's OK for him, with his backstory, but off-putting for a human.
     
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  11. BK613

    BK613 Commodore Commodore

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    Exactly right. So, did your "quick math" involve subtracting 1998 from 2020? :devil:
     
  12. ChallengerHK

    ChallengerHK Captain Captain

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    :angel: It did involve thinking along the lines of "I know it's been more than 20 ... when did I start ... yeah, 98, so that's 22 years."
     
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  13. MAGolding

    MAGolding Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    A theory.

    Now that I have done the first 15 episodes in broadcast order, half the first season of Star Trek: The Original Series, and all the ones that were broadcast during 1966, I am reminded that they seemed to depict a somewhat different future than later episodes of TOS.

    In broadcast order, the only order that fans knew about for a few years, they are:

    1) The Man Trap
    2) Charlie X
    3) Where No Man Has Gone Before
    4) The Naked Time
    5) The Enemy Within
    6) Mudd's Women
    7) What Are little Girls Made of?
    8) Miri
    9) Dagger of the Mind
    10) The Corbomite Maneuver
    11) The Menagerie Part 1
    12) The Menagerie Part 2
    13) The Conscience of the King
    14) Balance of Terror
    15) Shore Leave

    But in production order they were:

    1) Where No Man Has Gone Before
    2) The Corbomite Maneuver
    3) Mudd's Women
    4) The Enemy Within
    5) The Man Trap
    6) The Naked Time
    7) Charlie X
    8) Balance of Terror
    9) What Are Little Girls Made of?
    10) Dagger of the Mind
    11) Miri - Produced by Gene L. Coon
    12) The Conscience of the King - Produced by Gene L. Coon
    13) The Galileo 7 - Produced by Gene L. Coon - 16th episode broadcast, on January 5, 1967
    14) Court Martial - Produced by Gene L. Coon - 20th episode broadcast, on February 2, 1967.
    15) The Menagerie Part 1 - Produced by Gene L. Coon
    16) The Menagerie Part 2
    17) Shore Leave - Produced by Gene L. Coon

    And in stardate order they are:

    1) Where no man has gone before - 1312.4
    2) Mudd's Women - 1329.7
    3) The Corbomite Maneuver 1512.2
    4) The Man Trap - 1513.1
    5) Charlie X - 1533.6
    6) The Enemy Within - 1672.1
    7) The Naked Time - 1704.2
    8) Balance of Terror -1709.2
    9) The Squire of Gothos - 2124.5
    10) Patterns of Force - 2534.0
    11) What Are Little Girls made of? - 2712.4
    12) Miri - 2713.5
    13) Dagger of the Mind - 2715.1
    14) The Conscience of the King - 2817.6
    15) The Galileo 7 - 2821.5
    16) Court Martial - 2947.3
    17) The Menagerie Part 1 - 3012.4
    18) The Menagerie Part 2 - 3013.1
    19) Catspaw - 3018.2
    20) Shore Leave - 3025.3

    And the early TOS episodes are a pretty similar group in all three orders. The ten episodes that Gene Roddenburry produced are all in the first 13 episodes by stardate order and the first 14 by broadcast order.

    And the setting of TOS seems to change gradually as the series progresses, perhaps as much as the setting of TNG changes from that of TOS over a span of a fictional century of time.

    In early episodes the Enterprise seems to be an Earth ship, and Earth seems to have very little contact with other advanced civilizations.

    Since Spock mentions his mother was human in "The Naked Time", there should have been contact with Vulcans for at least 30 or 40 years..

    In "The Corbomite Maneuver" they make first contact with the advanced society of the First Federation. In "Charlie X" they make first contact with the advanced Thasians, but there is no indication that they will be interacting with them much. In "Balance of terror" they make first contact in a century with the Romulans, with little prospect for peaceful further contact. In "The Maneagerie Part 1" Kirk does mention the lack of alien problems at the moment, implying that they happen from time to time with various alien societies.

    In "The Man Trap" and "What Are Little Girls Made of?" archaeologists study extinct civilizations. In "Miri" contact is made with a few survivors of a fallen civilization.

    In "The Menagerie" a very limited contact is made with the Talosioans, and the Green Orion Slave Women are mentioned.

    In later TOS a lot has changed, Starfleet serves the United Federation of Planets, not just Earth, and contact has been made with many more different alien civilizations.

    In "The Empath":

    How many telepathic spcies have to be known for Spock to be able to classify more than 98 percent of them as having a common characteristic?

    If there were only 100 known telepathic species, 98 would be 98 percent and 99 would be 99 percent. If there were 200 telepathic species, 197 of them would be 98.5 percent. If there were 300 known telepathic species, 295 of them wold be 98 and one third percent, and 296 of them would be 98 and two thirds percent. So possibly at least about 300 known telepathic species would be necessary for Spock to say over 98 percent of them. And what proportion of known species are counted as being telepathic?

    So it is like there was an incredibly rapid explosion of Earth and Federation knowledge and expansion early during TOS.

    On way to make it a little less incredibly rapid would be my theory that most Star Trek episodes happen in alternate universes of their own, separate from those of most other TOS episodes. One thing that most of the early TOS episodes might have in common could be that the ultra rapid expansion is very new and just started in them, while one thing which the later TOS episodes might have in common is that in their alternate universes the ultra rapid expansion has started a little bit earlier in them and thus is a bit more advanced.

    Another theory that could make the ultra rapid expansion during TOS more plausible would be some sort of time skip during TOS. Possibly TOS is spread out over more years than is usually thought.

    Kirk's introduction to each episode mentions the five year mission.but doesn't state that all the TOS episodes happen during the same five year mission. Could early TOS episodes be during the first couple of years of Kirk's first five year mission and later TOS episodes be during a later five year mission of Kirk in command of the Enterprise with mostly the same senior crew, with a gap of a few years of unseen events between them?

    in the Voyager episode "Q2" Icheb is presenting his history of Starfleet.

    It is usually supposed that Icheb is referring to the end of TOS and Kirk's regaining command of the Enterprise in Star Trek: The Motion Picture after at least 2.5 years. But it could be possible that Icheb is referring to Kirk completing his first five year mission and early TOS, and then regaining command of the Enterprise some time later for a second five year mission with most of the same senior staff during later TOS.

    In Star Trek: The Motion Picture Kirk says he should command the V'Ger mission:

    Five years should be between five years and six years if Kirk is speaking precisely, or between four years and seven years if Kirk is being less precise. Either span would be short of the ten years for two five year missions. And it seems unlikely that Kirk would describe his period of command as five years if it was really ten years, unless that was some sort of habit of Kirk's for some reason and Kirk expected Decker to correct that to ten year. So in the alternate universe of Star Trek: The Motion Picture Kirk probably had only one five year mission in command of the Enterprise in the era of TOS before Star Trek: The Motion Picture.

    But it is possible that Star Trek: The Motion Picture happens in an alternate universe to the timeline of TNG, DS9, and Voyager.

    If Kirk had only one five year mission lasting for between four and seven years, there still could have been a hiatus and a time skip of a few years between early TOS and later TOS, if that hiatus is not counted among the years of Kirk's five year mission.

    Possibly many of the crew were killed and kept in cryogenic stasis until McCoy discovered a method to bring them back to life, Possibly they had to go into suspended animation for years. Possibly the Enterprise was locked in a rapid orbit around a black hole and experienced extreme time dilation until it was rescued, as in the first episode of Andromeda. Possibly the Enterprise was hurled into the future by a time anomaly.

    Of course in "The Deadly Years" Kirk said he was thirty four years old, presumably after that time skip. if some years have to be inserted after Kirk became captain, that would mean Kirk became captain even younger than otherwise. But maybe Kirk's official age was adjusted after the time skip to reflect the shorter amount of time he had lived instead of the longer amount of time since he was born.

    If "Balance of Terror" was before a jump forward in time, the Romulans could have agreed to the establishment of Nimbus III some time after "Balance of Terror" and before the leap in time, and thus a comparatively long time before "Space Seed". That could help explain how Star Trek III: The Wrath of Khan was only fifteen years after "Space Seed" and Star trek V: The Final Frontier, which should be only a few months later, was 20 years after the establishment of Nimbus III.

    In the later part of the first season, and in the second season, Kirk and Spock meet old friends.

    When Kirk meets Areel Saw in "Court Martial", presumably with the time skip after their previous meeting::

    Spock meets Leila Kalomi again in "This Side of Paradise":

    Kirk meets Janet Wallace again in "The Deadly Years":

    Kirk's words could be interpreted to mean that he was already captain of the Enterprise over six years earlier, which is a little hard to fit into a five year mission, unless there was a literal time jump or something during the mission.

    And it is also possible that the Enterprise also skipped forward in time a few other times during TOS, so the five year mission might have been spread out over fifteen years of time.

    If episode happen in stardate order, it is possible that when the stardate reaches 9999, it rolls over to 0000 and slowly rises to 9999 again, and drops back down to 0000 again, over and over. So it is possible that the Enterprise jumped forward in time between the third season of TOS and the first season of TAS, thus passing into a new stardate cycle. Thus the TAS episodes that would happen during TOS according to their stardates could happen during the next stardate cycle after TOS.

    Some Star Trrek chronologists might want to consider whether the Enterprise could have traveled one or more centuries into the future and still been a useful starship in at least a few episodes of TOS before finding a way to return to their original time,. That could explain some of the discrepancies in how far in the future TOS was.

    So I think this idea has some promise. What do you think?
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2020
  14. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I doubt that there had been any contact with the Romulans since the battles of 2160 in BOT to be honest and the setting up of Nimbus Three could have been a deal made after the Romulan government asked for the return of it's captured Commander! :vulcan:
    JB
     
  15. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I looked and missed this, where does Kirk say this?
    But were those actions comcidered violations by the standards of Kirk's time, or Voyager's time. Janeway at one point says that in her time Kirk would have been thrown out of starfleet, but is it also likely Janeway would have similarly been thrown out of TOS era starfleet?

    Given that the prime directive is important within starfleet, I think (head canon time) that Kirk ever actual broke it. At minimum he would be releaved of his command the first time, but he never is, I think because under the prime directive of the day he wasn't violationing it's tenents. The PD of Kirk's time and Janeway's time are very obviously different.
    Five years would also be between two years and eighty-seven years.
     
  16. Tim Zombieson

    Tim Zombieson Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The scene in Mendez's office early on between Kirk and Mendez:
     
  17. MAGolding

    MAGolding Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    In broadcast order "The Galileo 7", broadcast 5 January 1967, is the 16th episode of TOS.

    Note that the Federation is claiming to be a galactic government by giving such a title to its high commissioners, unless Ferris is a commissioner of some inter governmental agency or organization.

    No problem, eh? Nothing can go wrong?

    Note that the distance between Murasaki 312 and Makus III should be about 3 days travel at warp factor 6, the fastest safe warp speed, or at the emergency warp speeds of warp factor 7 or warp factor 8.. According to the official, but not canon or necessarily correct, TOS warp scale, the Enterprise should travel about 216 light days per day at Warp factor 6, 343 light days per day at warp 7, and 512 light days per day at warp 8. So the distance from Murasaki 312 to Makus III should be about 648, 1,029, or 1,536 light days, or about 1.7, 2.8, or 4.2 light years. The nearest stars system to Makus III would probably be about 5 light years away, so even if the Enterprise headed to Makus III from the nearest stars system instead of a more distant one, it should have already traveled a large part of the distance to Makus III.

    So the Enterprise won't take the medicines straight to the New Paris Colony but will rendezvous at Makus Three to transfer them to another ship.

    Note that if the Enterprise didn't stop at Murasaki 312 it would arrive at Makus II two days before the rendezvous. Why shouldn't the Enterprise use those two days to be travel closer to New Paris and then rendezvous with the other ship closer to New Paris? why can't the Enterprise go directly to New Paris? That would get the medicine to New Paris two days earlier, assuming that both ships travel at the same speed all during the journey, and might save many lives.

    But why does the delivery of the medicines to New Paris to fight the plague have to be delayed for 2 days for a transfer to another ship? Wouldn't the medicines reach New Paris 2 days sooner and maybe save many lives if the Enterprise took them straight to New Paris?

    The only suggested reason why the Enterprise couldn't go all the way to New Paris I have found was maybe the Enterprise couldn't leave the sector of space it was patrolling unguarded long enough to go to New Paris and then back. But what about the ship that the Enterprise was going to meet at Makus III and transfer the medicines to? Couldn't two starships merely switch their patrol sectors? If the Enterprise went to New Paris, that other ship could go to the Enterprise 's old sector and patrol it, and after the Enterprise delivered the medicines to New Paris the Enterprise could go to the other ships's old sector and patrol it.

    Maybe the other ship wasn't a mighty starship but a tiny fast courier ship and couldn't defend the Enterprise's sector while the Enterprise was away.. Maybe.

    As many Star Trek fans know there are a lot of problems with the time, distance, and speed of various interstellar voyages in TOS and later productions.

    One theory to explain those problems and inconsistencies is that sometimes starships don't point their bows at distant star systems, turn on the warp drive, and travel all the way through vast empty interstellar space to those star systems. Perhaps starship can also travel though a system of space warps, probably some type of stable wormholes, from one star system to another, disappearing from one point in space and reappearing in another point in space in much less time than it would take to travel the distance between those two points.

    If each star system has at least two space warp "mouths" in it, a starship could appear out of one mouth, zoom across the star system to anther mouth and enter it, and reappear in another star system, in a tiny fraction of the time it would take to travel across all the distance between those two star systems.

    Suppose that the Enterprise was orbiting Planet A in star system B when it had to get to Planet C in Star system D. Suppose that the Enterprise makes 5 jumps between star systems using those space warps to reach star system D. The total duration of the voyage would be four times the average travel time between two "mouths" within a star system, plus the time to travel from planet A to the mouth in star system B, plus the time it takes to travel from the mouth in star system D to Planet C, plus five times the average duration (if any) of the jumps between star systems. And sometimes that could be many times faster than travelling all the way though interstellar space from star system B to star system D.

    Of course in the TNG episode "The Price" The Barzan Wormhole was believed to be the first stable wormhole, until it was discovered to be unstable, and in DS9 the Bajoran Wormhole was found to be the first known stable wormhole. Maybe those "space tunnels" are totally different from wormholes, maybe they were created by an ancient alien civilization that has them surrounded by force fields that block all sensors that could be used to tell if they are wormholes.

    In the TNG episode "Haven" there is mention of the stargate in the Haven system, which is not described. It could be the mouth of a space warp leading to another star system.

    But maybe those hypothetical stargates in Star Trek function periodically, not constantly.. Possibly they turn on and off at regular intervals. Or possibly every stargate changes the star system that it leads to at regular intervals.

    And possibly a stardate unit is the length of a regular periodic change in the stargates, whether turning on and off or changing their destinations. So a stardate user could tell the current status of the stargate system from the current stardate.

    So possibly the Enterprise wasn't travelling through interstellar space toward Makus III when it stopped to investigate Murasaki 312. Maybe it was jumping from star system to star system through that hypothetical system of stargates to reach Makus III, and Murasaki 312 was in one of the solar systems it was passing through.

    And if the operation of the system of stargates changes periodically, possibly the Enterprise would have to wait at Makus III for two days for the stargate system to change so the other ship could reach Makus III, receive the medicines, and travel to New Paris, which presumably was in the sector that other starship patrolled. Possibly supercomputers at Starfleet Command Headquarters analyzed thousands and millions and billions of possible routes and schedules and calculated that that would be the fastest route to get the medicines to New Paris. And that left the Enterprise with two days to spare, which it was free to use to investigate Murasaki 312.

    And possibly Murasaki 312 was usually quiet, but was exhibiting extreme effects at the moment, needing to be studied.

    An unspecified time after the shuttle Galileo 7 launches, Murasaki 312 goes wild and pulls the shuttle in.

    On the Enterprise, Kirk tells Ferris:

    At the official warp speeds of a starship, which a shuttlecraft shouldn't be able to travel any faster than, it should take days for a shuttle to reach a star system. One would normally expect to find four complete solar systems within a radius of five to ten light years.

    Possibly the Muraski 312 effect managed to somehow increase the shuttle's warp speed as in sucked it in. Mr. Boma's words after the shuttle lands on Taurus II seem to suggest that:

    But apparently the Enterprise was not pulled into the Murasaki effect, and after the Muraski effect subsides the Enterprise manages to follow the Galileo 7 in a short time, so the distance which the shuttle was pulled can not be too great.

    Another possible theory is that this is in an open star cluster, full of young stars including very massive young stars which will quickly pass through the stages of their life cycles and end up in their final condition. Perhaps Murasaki 312 is one of those massive stars which a has already reached more or less its final condition, a stellar mass black hole, forming a microquasar.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microquasar

    If this is in the densest part of the open cluster, the nearest four star systems might be a lot closer than in more typical regions of interstellar space, and every little bit helps.

    And possibly the "four complete solar systems in the immediate vicinity" were technically one complete, multiple star system.

    It could have four stars in two pairs. Each pair might be separated by about 15 to 30 Astronomical Units (AU) and the two pairs might be separated by several hundred AU. With such separations, each star could have some planets in stable S-Type orbits around it, including within its habitable Zone.

    And by chance that quadruple star system could have been passing very close to the microquasar Murasaki 312.

    Kirk says they have two days to find the missing shuttle and its crew.

    After the Enterprise has arrived at Planet Taurus II:

    .

    So stardate 2823.8 should be approximately 2 days after stardate 2821.5.

    If the two days were approximately two 24 hour periods, approximately 48 hours, give or or take some, would equal approximately 2.3 stardate units, giving a ratio of about 20.8 hours per stardate unit, give or take a few..

    If the two days were approximately two work days or watches, and there are three or four watches in 24 hours, each watch would last 6 or 8 hours. So approximately 12 to 16 hours in approximately 2.3 stardate units would give a ratio of about 5.2 or 6.9 hours per stardate units.

    Outside the shuttlecraft, McCoy says this is Spock's big chance for command. After at least 13 years in Starfleet, Spock should have had many similar chances to command landing parties on various planets and shuttlecraft on various voyages. And in fact Spock commanded the Enterprise as early as Talos IV in "The Cage" when Pike and Number One were away, and called himself acting captain. Spock has also commanded the Enterprise when Kirk was away in several of the previous episodes of TOS.

    So my guess is that "The Galileo 7" happens in an alternate universe where Spock has not been in temporary command of the Enterprise in those episodes, and that Spock doesn't bother to correct McCoy's assumption that Spock has somehow n ever commanded a landing party or a shuttlecraft or a starship in the absence of its captain before.

    After Lattimer is killed:

    The Folsom Point is the name of a type of stone spearhead and knife used in North America between about 9500 BCE and 8000 BCE. They are named after the Folsom Site in Wild Horse Arroyo 8 miles West of Folsom, New Mexico. Ex slave and ranch foreman George McJunkin found large bones exposed after a rainstorm in 1908, and tried for years to get the site scientifically investigated. Archaeologists first visited the site in 1919, and in 1926 Jesse Figgens found a Folsom point embedded between two ribs of an extinct prehistoric bison. He cut out the ribs and Folsom point together, without disturbing their relationship, to use as proof that humans had been in North America thousands of years earlier than was believed by mainstream archaeologists.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folsom_Site

    So the first Folsom Point was discovered by scientists in 1926, one year later than Spock said. Therefor I deduce that TOS should happen in an alternate universe where when the Folsom Point was found the calendar then in use said that the current year was 1925. So TOS should be in an alternate universe where either the Folsom Point was discovered in AD 1925 instead of AD 1926, or else a different calendar counting the years from a different epoch was then used in North America.

    So possibly sometime after the numeral zero became commonly used by Christians, many Christian groups decided to replace the year AD One with the year Zero, thus renumbering AD 2 to AD 1, and so on, thus making AD 1926 the year 1925 in their year count. Or, since there is considerable uncertainty about the year when Jesus was born, some Christian groups might have made AD 2 (or some later year) year One in their calendar.

    On the Enterprise, Ferris reminds Kirk that he is running out of time for the search. Ferris reminds Kirk

    So about 24 hours in a difference of about 1.5 stardate units between 2822.3 and 2823.8 equals about 16 hours per stardate unit.

    Back on the planet, when deciding to drain the phasers to power the shuttle Spock says:

    Later, the natives of Taurus II attack the shuttle.

    On the bridge:

    Since Stardate 2823.1 is about 0.7 stardate units before stardate 2823.8, and since it seems to be established that there should be about 20.8 hours, give or take a few, in a stardate unit, this should be about 14.5 hours before the deadline. But Ferris just said the deadline was in two hours and forty three minutes, less than two and three quarters hours. That is a significant difference.. At that rate there would be only 3.9 hours in a stardate unit.

    On Taurus II, they electrify the hull of the shuttle to drive off the natives.

    Search party two under Lt. Kellowitz returns. Commissioner Ferris returns to the Bridge.

    On the bridge:

    After the Galileo 7 achieves orbit, Spock jettisons and ignite the fuel as a signal:

    So Kirk delayed departure for 23 minutes, and then left at space normal speed, slower than light. The Galileo 7 was in orbit for 6 minutes, but it is uncertain when the shuttle achieved orbit relative to the 23 minutes which Kirk delayed leaving by. So the total time that Kirk delayed leaving for Makus III at warp speed is unknown, but at least 23 minutes long.

    So one would expect Kirk to order Sulu to zoom away at warp factor six or something to make up for the 23 minutes that Kirk had delayed the arrival of the medicines at the New Paris Colony.

    But instead Kirk tells Sulu to use the slowest known warp speed, warp factor one!

    Well, maybe once they got out of the solar system of Taurus II, they then accelerated to warp factor seven for a while to make up for the lost time and get to Makus III on schedule

    I note that according to the evidence in " The Galileo 7" there should be about 20.8 hours in a stardate unit, or about 16 hours in a stardate unit, or about 5.2 or about 6.9 hours in a stardate unit, or about 3.9 hours in a stardate unit. Very interesting.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2020
  18. MAGolding

    MAGolding Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2015
    In Broadcast order "The Squire of Gothos", broadcast on12 Janaury 1967, is the 17th episode of TOS.

    The episode opens as the starship Enterprise is crossing a starless void or star desert about 900 light years from Earth, headed for Beta VI.

    If warp factor three is 27 times light speed as in the official, but not necessarily correct TOS warp formula, travelling 8 days or about 192 hours at that speed would be travelling a distance of about 216 light hours, or about 0.6 light year, which is a much shorter distance than the average separation between stars in our galaxy. In this part of the galaxy, there are about 0.004 stars per cubic light year, or one star for every 250 cubic light years. You would expect to find about one star in every cube of space that was 2.93 light years on a side. So how would anyone notice a star void in such a tiny region of space that it would not be expected to have any stars anyway?.

    Maybe Colony Beta Six is in some sort of space station floating in the void, and not in a star system on the far side of the void. Maybe the void is free of interstellar dust and gas as well as free of stars.

    The planet Gothos appears, & Sulu and Kirk disappear.

    A landing party is sent down to Gothos. Entering Trelane's home, they pass a Salt Vampire in an alcove. Some fans suggest that McCoy's reaction to it proves that he has experience "The Man Trap". Trelane appears and unfreezes Kirk and Sulu.

    When did people start to say "Vive Napoleon"? When he became First Consul of France on 10 November, 1799? When he became Emperor of the French on 18 May, 1804?

    Alexander Hamilton was fatally wounded on July 11, 1804, and died on July 12, 1804.

    Assuming that the distance was somewhere between 800 and 1,000 light years from Earth, and assuming that the latest information Trelane had about Earth was from AD 1804 or later, "The Squire of Gothos" would happen sometime between about AD 2604 to AD 2804, or later if Trelane had later information about Earth, which is centuries later than the era when TOS is usually believed to happen.

    I note that if Jaeger and/or Kirk thought that the exterior of the castle looked like a structure from about AD 1000 to 1500, 800 to 1,000 years after that would be the period between AD 1800 and AD 2500, which would include the era when TOS is usually believed to have happened. And maybe they didn't notice how much more recent other aspects of the decor were.

    So apparently Trelane learned about Earth via some method other than viewing it with electromagnetic radiation from a distance of 900 light years - a practice which would have many other problems. So that is probably not a valid indication of the date of TOS.

    Captain's Log Stardate 2125.7. Science Officer Spock reporting for Captain Kirk. We have completed fourteenth orbit of this planet without establishing contact with our missing officers or the parties sent to find them. Subspace communications remain blocked. However, by diverting impulse power to our sensors, we have made them operable, and we have detected one small area on the surface which seems relatively stable.

    There were 1.2 stardate units between 2124.5 and 2125.7. If the 14 orbits were at least 90 minutes long, which is close to the fastest possible orbit of Earth, fourteen orbits would last 1,260 minutes, or 21 hours. 21 hours minus 4 hours is 17 hours. So there should have been at least 17 hours in 1.2 stardate units, making a stardate unit at least 14 hours long.

    Spock decides to beam up any lifeforms the sensors detect in that small surface area.

    The flags actually look like national fa flags, not the regimental colors that men marched off into battle under. And they look far more modern than the periods Trelane mentions - some of them may date from after 1804.

    Spock beams them back up to the ship. So have they been Trelane's guest for 17 long hours? Or did the Enterprise orbit the planet Gothos 14 times in a little over 4 hours with an average orbital period of about 17 or 18 minutes using its powerful engines to zoom around Gothos without flying into space? The large stardate difference indicates that Kirk and co. might have been "enjoying" trelane's hospitality for hours, even if a bit less than 17 hours.

    When Trelane boards the ship, Spock says:

    That seems to be the first time he mentions on of his parents in the present tense.

    After Trelane takes most of the bridge crew down to Gothos and things happen for a while until Kirk challenges Trelane to a duel:

    Stardate 2126.1 is 0.4 stardate units after 2125.7 and 1.6 stardate units after 2124.5. So if a stardate unit is at least 14 hurs long, the duel between Kirk and Trelaneshould be at least 5.6 hours after stardate 2125.7 and at least 22.4 hours after stardate 2124.5, which was four hours after the episode started. That seems like a lot of time for the people in Trelane's place to spend down there with no indicates of a break in the action.

    Kirk says it is delayed report. Presumably this means that Kirk made this log for stardate 2126.1 sometime after stardate 2126.1.

    As the Enterpise tries to flee, Kirk says:

    This may imply that Trelane made a star appear as well as the planet Gothos. When Kirk beams down to Gothos,he tells Spock to try to leave orbit if he doesn't hear from Kirk in one hour.

    So stardate 2126.3 should be about one hour after stardate 2126.1. So if there is one hour in 0.2 stardate units, there should be about 5 hours in a stardate unit.

    If there were 1.2 stardate units between stardate 2124.5 and stardate 2125.7, that period would thus be about 6 hours long at the ratio of 5 hours per stardate unit. So the Enterprise would would have had 14 orbits in a period of about 10 hours, and thus an orbital period around Gothos of about 0.7 hours or 43 minutes.

    The span between stardate 2124.5 and stardate 2126.3 would be 1.8 stardate units and about 9 hours, a more reasonable time for the protagonists to "enjoy" Trelane's hospitality.

    In the final scene:

    So they reached Beta Six by the end of the episode.
     
  19. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2009
    Location:
    North Wales
    Trelane must have really got to Spock: As they reach Colony Beta Six at the end of the episode he is still thinking about the incident, even though earlier dialogue indicated that it would have been eight days later!
     
  20. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2016
    Grandiose title either way. The only thing we can glean from the title is that Faris is some kind of commissioner, and nothing as to who he works for.

    No indication that Farris is a federation government official, or any organization within the federation. The "New Paris Colony" could be a Human colony that has no connection with the federation that the Enterprise is transporting drugs towards. The Enterprise does undertake missions directly for Earth on occasion, and aid to a non-federation Human colony could be what the drug shipment was. Farris could be a commissioner for whatever poltical organization New Paris was a part of.

    Just because the term "galactic" is used, doesn't immediately mean it's a galactic wide whatever.
    While grateful for the drugs, perhaps New Paris doesn't want a starship in their space and so the drugs with be transfer to a New Paris ship?
    Maybe the ship the drugs are going to be transfer to is faster than the Enterprise, but in that case why not have that ship come to the Enterprise (or closer) while the Enterprise is engaged in the search.
    Just that. For some reason they can't.

    Makus Three has to act as a go between, the drugs have to first go there, and then go to the other ship.

    The drugs can't (for some reason) be transferred directly from the Enterpise to the other ship.

    The other ship can't enter federation space.
    That assumes that each full digit in stardates represents a day.
    Despite what some fans think, Spock isn't all knowing and infallible. At times he simply thinks he is.
    That might be just until the ship clears the star system.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2020