TOS Chronology

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by MAGolding, May 4, 2020.

  1. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2016
    Using the warp factor to the third power warp scale, it would take the Enterprise over four years at warp six to get nine hundred light years from Earth, assuming near continuious straight line travel.

    Another indication that that scale by itself doesn't work.
    We see Trelane's planet moving at warp speed during the episode, so it at different times it could have been much closer to Earth.

    Given the planet's illumination in interstellar space, the planet's star (or the entire star system?) is accompanying the planet.
     
    Qonundrum likes this.
  2. diankra

    diankra Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2005
    Location:
    UK
    Well, you can get different death tolls for WW1 by including, or excluding, things like the flu pandemic, the Russian revolution and civil war, or just civilian starvation rather than deaths in combat.
     
    ChallengerHK likes this.
  3. MAGolding

    MAGolding Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2015
    In Broadcast order the 18th episode of TOS is "Arena", broadcast on 1 9 January, 1967.

    When the Enterprise arrives at Cestus III, a message from "Commodore Travers" asks for Kirk to bring his tactical people.

    Kirk, Spock , & McCoy beam down with Kelowitz, Lang, and O'Herlihy, and find the Cestus III outpost devastated..

    Sulu is in command of the Enterprise. There is no clue where Scott is.

    Aliens attack on Cestus III while a ship attacks the Enterprise.

    As far as I remember, Sulu's only experience of ship to ship combat in TOS so far was in "Balance of terror" and the threat of combat in "The Corbomite Maneuver". Presumably Sulu has some other combat experience previous to TOS.

    After the aliens are beamed back to their ship:

    If Kirk believes that section of the Federation would be unprotected and wide open for attack if the Enterprise was destroyed, why h is Kirk risking the destruction of the Enterprise by pursuing the alien vessel closer to other alien warships and their hypothetical powerful main bases?

    If warp factor five is is 125 times the speed of light, according to the official but not necessarily canon TOS warp formula, and if warp factor six is 216 times the speed of light, the Enterprise would rapidly close the distance between it and the alien ship while travelling at warp factor six while the alien travels at warp factor five. The speed of light is 299,792,458 meters per second, or approximately 300,000 kilometers per second.

    So warp factor six, about 64,800,000 kilometers per second, is about 27,300,000 kilometers per second faster than warp factor five, about 37,500,000 kilometers per second. While the Enterprise is travelling at warp 6 and the alien ship at warp 5, the Enterprise will get 27,300,000 kilometers closer to the alien ship every second, 1,638,000,000 kilometers closer ever minute, and 98,280,000,000 kilometers closer ever hour. In other terms, the Enterprise would gain 91 light seconds every second, 91 light minutes every minute, 91 light hours every hours, and 91 light days every day, that it was travelling at warp six and the alien ship at warp five.

    There are 0.6 stardate units between 3045.6 and 3046.2. Unfortunately there is no indication of how many hours or days might have passed between those two stardates.

    Assuming that it is at least one hour, there should be at least one and two thirds hours per stardate unit in "Arena", which is not very helpful.

    A parsec is about 3.26156 (three point two six one five six) light years. So twenty two point three parsecs is about 72.73287 (seventy two point seven three two eight seven) light years.

    Since Cestus III could not have been all the way to the latest chart limit, they must have traveled farther than that to reach a point seventy two point seven three two eight seven light years beyond the farthest charts.

    A light year is the distance traveled by light in a Julian calendar year 365.25 days long. A light year thus contains 365.25 light days (the distance light travels in a day) and 8,766 light hours (the distance light travels in an hour), and 525,960 light minutes (the distance light travels in a minute), and 31,557,600 light seconds (the distance light travels in a second).

    So at warp factor five, a starship would travel 125 light seconds every second, and so on. At warp factor six, a starship would travel 216 light minutes every minute, and so on.

    So if they had traveled seventy two point seven three two eight seven light years at warp factor five, it would have taken them 212.525446 (two hundred twelve point five) days to travel that distance. And if they had traveled seventy two point seven three two eight seven light years at warp factor five, it would have taken them 122.9892628 (one hundred twenty two point nine) days to travel that distance.

    And the audience gets the impression that only hours, instead of hundreds of days, have passed, and thus that the two warp factors mentioned must be at least hundreds or thousands of times as fast as the official TOS warp scale!

    Warp factor seven on the official TOS era scale would be 343 times light speed, 127 light speeds faster than warp factor six. At warp factor seven, the Enterprsie would gain 127 light seconds every second that the alien ship was travelling only at only warp six, and 127 light minutes every time the alien ship was travelling at only warp six, and 127 light hours every hour that the alien ship was travelling at only warp six.

    About a minute later:

    Warp factor eight is 512 times light speed on the official TOS era warp scale, and thus 169 light speeds faster than warp factor seven. At warp factor eight, the Enterprise would gain 169 light seconds every second that the alien ship was travelling only at only warp seven, and 169 light minutes every time the alien ship was travelling at only warp seven, and 169 light hours every hour that the alien ship was travelling at only warp seven.

    Later they are finally closing on the alien ships. I don't know if the aliens went to warp factor eight for a while but couldn't keep it up, of if they have been at warp factor seven the whole unspecified time and the Enterprise has been getting closer every second, minute, and hour in the interval.

    :

    So the alien ship has already passed the uncharted solar system. The Enterprise is scanned from that solar system.

    So the alien ship has already passed that solar system and the Enterprise is has not yet reached it and gone past. The gap between the two ships seems to be wider than that entire solar system. So how are the limits of a solar system defined in TOS era Star Trek? How many millions, or billions, or trillions of kilometers would be between the two ships?

    With the Enterprise at warp eight and the aien ship stopped, the Enterprise would close the distance by 512 light seconds (or .153,493,737.5, kilometers, more than one Astronomical Unit) every second, and 512 light minutes (more than eight and half light hours) every minute. The orbit of Neptune is aobut 4.2 light hours from the Sun, so if the Entprise was catching up to the alien ship at warp factor eight for a full minute it would travel the entire distance across Neptune's orbit from one side of the Sun to the other side!.

    With the Enterprise at warp eight and the alien ship stopped, the Enterprise would close the distance by 512 light seconds (or .153,493,737.5, kilometers, more than one Astronomical Unit) every second, and 512 light minutes (more than eight and half light hours) every minute. The orbit of Neptune is about 4.2 light hours from the Sun, so if the Enterprise was catching up to the alien ship at warp factor eight for a full minute it would travel the entire distance across Neptune's orbit from one side of the Sun to the other side!.

    The difference in range decreased by 50, 60, 60, 50, and 40 of the unspecified units. Assuming that it decreased by about 40 to 60 units per second, and the Enterprise was travelling at warp 8, it would be decreasing the range by 512 light seconds or 8.53 light minutes every second. So those units would equal approximately 8.53 to 12.8 light seconds. Thus the total distance at the beginning of Sulu's count down would be approximately 72.400 to 108,600 light seconds, and the total distance remaining at the end of Sulu's count down would be about 62,000 to 93,000 light seconds, or about 17.2 to 25.83 light hours.

    Assuming that the average speed of the Enterprise during that deceleration was 256 times the speed of light, for every second that it took the Enterprise to decelerate it would have traveled 256 light seconds or 4.26 light minutes, a tiny fraction of the remaining distance to the alien ship.

    If the alien ship left Cestus III aft warp factor five, and if that was the official TOS scale 125 times the speed of light, each second it was at warp 5 and the Enterprise wasn't it would get 125 light seconds or 2 light minutes farther way. Each minute it would get 125 light minutes or t.2 light hours farther away. Each hour it would get 125 light hours or 5.2 light days or 0.0142 of a light year farther away.

    And it may have taken Kirk, Spock, & McCoy minutes or hours to get the 30 medical personnel and their necessary equipment and supplies down to Cestus III before leaving to pursue the alien ship. Of course, if the ships had to travel at hundreds or thousands of times the speeds of the official TOS wrp scale, the distances traveled per unit of time and the separation between the two ships would have been hundreds or thousands of times as far., and thus possibly the Enterprise was one or more light years behind the alien ship during the chase.

    The Metrons transport Captain Kirk to the surface of what they call a planet in their system.

    Some people might have seen the Disney channel show Jessie (2011-2015), where a ten-year-old boy keeps a pet Asian water monitor (Varanus salvator).. in real life, my sister had a pet snake when she was about that age. So I don't think that all humans always have an instinctive revulsion to all reptiles.

    Aboard the Enterprise.
    :

    So the Metron solar system is still ahead of the Enterprise and behind the Gorn ship, and they are still separated by at least the unspecified size of the Metron solar system.

    A thousand cubic parsecs could be a volume of space that was 10 parsecs by 10 parsecs by 10 parsecs. Since a parsec is 3.261 light years, a thousand cubic parsecs would be about 34,677 cubic light years and have about 148 solar systems in it. Is it possible that the Gorn ship is more than 32 light years ahead of the Enterprise, or does Spock have some other reason for saying Kirk could be within a thousand cubic parsecs?

    Like Mudd's Women", this seems to contradict "Catspaw" about the value of diamonds.

    As I remember, when the Metrons show what is happening on the viewscreen, Uhura seems frightened by the sight of the Gorn. Even though Saurian brandy was a well known drink, and There were Saurians serving in starfleet according to TMP and DISC, and there was Sord, a member of another reptilian species in "The Jihad". And maybe Uhura is reptile phobic and a lot less accustomed to highly nonhuman aliens than most Starfleet members.

    When the Metron appears to KIrk, in their real or assumed form, Kirk says that they look like a boy, but the Metron says they are about 1,500 Earth years old, without saying whether they are an adult by Metron standards.

    When Kirk is transported back to the bridge:

    I don't know what star is meant by Arcanis, but Sirius and Canopus are real stars.

    A distance of 500 Parsecs is about 1,630.5 light years. Since the galactic disc of the Milky Way galaxy is about 100,000 light years in diameter and about 1,000 light years thick, a distance of 1,600 light years is less than two percent of the diameter of he galactic disc. that doesn't seem b very close to "clear across the " the galaxy. Maybe Sulu meant that they were clear across the thickness of the galactic disc.

    So apparently they are going back to Cestus III, to pick up the medical team and resume patrolling their region of space, which could be about one or two hundred light years closer or farther away than the Metron system was. So they might be travelling 1,400 to 1,800 light years at a speed of warp factor one, supposed to be the speed of light. So it should take them only about 1,400 to 1,8000 years to pick up the medical team they left on cestus III. I'm sure the medical team brought enough supplies to last, and I'm sure nobody will invade that section of the Federation while the Enterprise is away.

    At warp factor six it would take only about 8 years to get back to Cestus III.

    In order to get back to Cestus III within one year a speed of 1,400 to 1,800 times the speed of light would be necessary. A speed of 16,800 to 21,600 times the speed of light would be necessary to get back to Cestus III in about one month. A speed of 73,050 to 93,921 times the speed of light would be necessary to get back to Cestus III in about one week. A speed of 511.350 to 657,450 times the speed of light would be necessary to get back to Cestus III in about one day.

    If the Enterprise traveled 22.3 parsecs or 72.73287 (seventy two point seven three two eight seven) light years, or 637,576.32 light hours.in a time period between one hour and one week (168 hours) that would require a speed of about 3,795.1 to 637,576.32 times the speed of light.

    At speeds of 3,795.1 to 657.450 times the speed of light, it would take about 0.15 to 26 years to cross the entire galactic disc 100,000 light years in diameter. That would make the basic plots of two entire series, DS9 and VOY, nonsense.

    I also note that the faster and the farther the Gorn ship flees from Cestus III without meeting another Gorn warship or a main Gorn base, the more dubious their claim to sincerely believe that Cestus III is within their territory becomes. So the ships travelling as slow and as small a distance as possible is good for the idea that the Gorns were defending their territory.

    So to me that suggests that the solution to similar problems suggested in my post about "The Galileo 7" could also be used to explain the time, speed, and distance problems in "Arena".
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
    Karswell likes this.
  4. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2016
    In other epsodes, it is suggested that when our heroes use the term "galaxy," that they are using that metaphorically to refer just to the federation, and not the entirety of the milky wat galaxy. Maybe as in "the civilized galaxy."

    Previously Kirk stated that the Enterprise was the only starship (a "non-military" military ship) in that area. And there is no guarantee that the Gorn leadership will be having the same epiphany Kirk had. The area isn't safe without a starship.

    Plus Enterprise crew remain on the planet.

    But there is another possibility to that last, Kirk beamed down the search teams and the Enterprise remained in orbit. Only after the search and the recovery of Enterprise personnel and any more survivors did the Enterprire then begin it pursuit. This might explain a significant lead in distance that Gorn initialy had over the Enterprise.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
  5. MAGolding

    MAGolding Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2015
    In broadcast order the 19th episode of TOS is "Tomorrow is Yesterday", broadcast on 26 January 1967.

    Somewhere over the US midwest, a UFO is detected on radar over the Omaha installation. A fighter plane is scrambled to intercept it. The pilot sees the U.S.S. Enterprise!

    A black star wold probably be a neutron star or a black hole.

    Spock says they in in orbit.

    Uhura picks up a radio broadcast:

    I note that of all the manned moon shots that were in the future back in 1967, only one, Apollo 11, launched on a Wednesday. However, it did not launch on 6 am Eastern Standard Time. putting Star Trek in an alternate universe.

    Thus the first manned moon shot might have taken place any time during the late 1960s according to the "Tomorrow is Yesterday" calendar, or TY calendar. So the date should be sometime between 1965 TY and 1969 TY. And there is no proof that the TY calendar used Anno Domini dating and counts the years from the epoch of AD 1.

    There is considerable uncertainty about the date of the birth of Jesus, and thus the possibility that another date might be used to count the years from in an alternate universe.

    "Two main approaches have been used to estimate the year of the birth of Jesus: one based on the accounts in the Gospels of his birth with reference to King Herod's reign, and the other by subtracting his stated age of "about 30 years" when he began preaching. Most scholars, on this basis, assume a date of birth between 6 and 4 BC.[1][2][3][4][5]"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_Jesus

    "Another calculation had been developed by the Alexandrian monk Annianus around the year AD 400, placing the Annunciation on 25 March AD 9 (Julian)—eight to ten years after the date that Dionysius was to imply. Although this incarnation was popular during the early centuries of the Byzantine Empire, years numbered from it, an Era of Incarnation, were exclusively used and are still used in Ethiopia. This accounts for the seven- or eight-year discrepancy between the Gregorian and Ethiopian calendars."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anno_Domini#Birth_date_of_Jesus

    Therefore, I can imagine that the TY calendar might count the years from the incarnation of Jesus and put that incarnation sometime between about 6 BC and AD 9. Thus 1965 to 1969 TY could be sometime between AD 1950 and AD 1977, assuming that space travel could develop a little faster or slower in the alternate universe of Star Trek.

    [Added 05-30-2020. It may be noted that both "The Galileo 7" and "City on the Edge of Froever" have chronological problems which can be solved by postulating either; 1) they happen in an alternate universe were some events happened at different times than in our history, or 2) they happen in an alternate universe where a different year count is used in early 20th century Earth.]

    It would be simple, and probably correct, to assume that Captain John Christopher was approximately the same age as his actor, Roger Perry, who was born 7 May 1933, and was 33 years and about 7 months old when his scenes were filmed between November 28 and December 5, 1966. So Christopher was probably roughly 28 to 28 and thus born about AD 1912 to AD 1949.

    [Added 05-30-2020. The "Wednesday" in the radio news is interesting. It may mean "Wednesday of this week", making the weekday Sunday or Monday - if it was Tuesday the announcer would have said "Tomorrow". Or it might mean "next Wednesday", meaning the day of the week could be Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, or Monday, with Tuesday eliminated because that would make the launch date "tomorrow".]

    [Added 05-30-2020. There is also the "launch period" and the "launch window" for lunar missions to consider.. There is a brief discussion in Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Launch_window Nasa calculated the lunar launch periods and the launch windows within each period for the 1960s, and no doubt those calculations can be extended to the entire possible period between AD 1950 and AD 1977 that "Tomorrow is yesterday" might happen in to narrow down the possible Wednesdays.]

    Captain Christopher is beamed aboard.

    This is between stardates 3113.2 and 3113.7. And about four hourse beforre the engines are ready to be energized.

    Later:

    Presumably Shaun Geoffrey Christopher will be born about AD 1951 to AD 1987 and will be aged about 30 to 60 when leading the first Earth-Saturn probe.about AD 1981 to 2047.

    After the air police sergeant is beamed up to the ship:

    At the airbase:

    Are the Enterprise chronometers set to display current time on Earth, so all that they have to do is convert from the time zone of the Enterprise chronometer to the local time zone? Or was there some more complicated conversion calculation involved? And what about travelling centuries back in time? Did the Enterprise travel a whole number.of days so that the chronometer was not off the time of day, or did they have to allow for that, also?

    Spock did claim he would have exact chronometer readings in a few moments, so possibly they did know the exact time the Enterprise appeared at Earth. And the radio announcer does say "This is the 5:30 news summary"

    And how did travelling centuries into the past affect their stardates?

    [Added 05-30-2020. After Kirk is captured and Sulu beams back up to the Enterprise:

    So this should be about four hours after Scott said the engines would be ready in about four hours, which was between stardates 3113.2 and 3113.7. This is between stardates 3113.9 and 3114.1, so four hours in 0.2 to 0.9 stardate units should equal about 4.44 to 20 hours per stardate unit. Since a different calculation indicates about 7.2 to 33.8 hours in a stardate unit, there should be about 7.2 to 20 hours in a stardate unit in "Tomorrow is Yesterday".].

    Kirk is interrogated by Colonel Fellini:

    Assuming that Kirk was reasonably serious that two hundred yeas would be about right, the era of TOS should be about 150 to 250 years after the late 1960s TY, which and thus about 2115 to 2219 TY, or maybe about 100 to 300 years after the late 1960s TY, to allow for more vagueness on Kirk's part, and thus about 2065 to 2269 TY. If the Anno Domini date is sometime between AD 1950 and AD 1977, the AD dating of Kirk's era might be sometime between AD 2100 and AD 2227, or at the widest sometime between AD 2050 and AD.2277.

    But possibly Kirk was just joking and the actual time span to his era was nowhere close to the two hundred years that Colonel Fellini happened to mention, or the wider 150 to 250 years, or the even wider 100 to 300 years, discussed above.

    Stardate 3114.1 is about 0.9 stardate units after stardate 3113.2.

    Saying the events would never have happened in the first place is the big illogical part of this episode, mere "sound and fury, signifying nothing" as far as science or science fiction goes.

    Kirk says they will go back in time "beyond yesterday, beyond the point when we first appeared in the sky."

    If that means that the Enterprise appeared in the sky sometime "yesterday", during the previous calendar day, that would mean that stardate 3113.2 when they first sighted Christopher's jet plane, was less than 48 hours earlier, and thus there are less than 48 hours in 0.9 stardate units, making a stardate unit less than 53 and a third hours long. If the time when they encountered Christopher's jet was 5.30 PM in the time zone they are using, it would be between 6.5 and 30.5 hours earlier, thus making about 7.2 to 33.8 hours in a stardate unit.

    [Added 05-30-2020. Since a different clue indicates about 4.44 to 20 hours in a stardate unit there may be 7.2 to 20 hours in a stardate unite in "Tomorrow is Yesterday".]

    As the starts to go backwards in time Kirk tells Christopher:

    That implies that they will go back in time 15 years before starting to go forward in time again.

    They travel back in time and then begin to move forward in time again. Captain Christopher and the air police sergeant are beamed into their other bodies That is the second biggest senselss plot element in "Tomorrow is Yesterday". Ir would have been far more sensible to have Spock mind meld and brainswash them to never remember anything they experienced. Somehow, the encounter with Christopher's plane never happened.

    Did Spock mean that they were approaching 100 years before the year and date that they left from? In that case they would soon become 100 years earlier than their time, then 99 years, 98 years, and so on.

    Or did Spock mean that they were approaching their calendar century? In that case, once they reached their calendar century, there could be between a fraction of a year and 100 years left in the century to go.

    They begin braking to slow down their passage thro ugh time.

    The Enterprise stops moving through time and space. And they get in touch with Starfleet Control.

    But how close to home is the Enterprise? How accurate were Spock's calculations? Did Kirk glace at an instrument and see the date they had arrived in? Or was Kirk just assuming they were in the proper day, week, month, year, decade, and century?

    Note that if they traveled 150 to 250 years after about 1965-1969 TY, and arrived more than 50 years into their proper century TY, their date would seem to be between 2150 and 2200 TY, while if they traveled 100 to 300 years into the future of 1665 to 1969 TY the date would be either between 2065 and 2100, between 2150 and 2200, or between 2250 and 2269. TY.

    So if all the assumptions and calculations are correct, and they arrived at the proper date, the era of TOS would be about between AD 2059 and 2108, or between AD 2144 and 2208, or between AD 2244 and 2277.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
  6. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2009
    Location:
    North Wales
    Warp speed in general is very strange in this episode. In Squire Of Gothos, 900 light years was implied to be a long way from Earth. Yet in this episode the Enterprise puts Cestus 22.3 parsecs behind them in 0.6 stardate units, which at most seems to be around half a day. That's equivalent to 145 light years a day! At that speed, Gothos is less than a week away from Earth and that's only at Warp 5!
    Were both ships being swept along at high velocity (subspace tidal wave?)
    This part of the galaxy does indeed earn its reputation from all those "space legends"... :biggrin:

    My own thoughts on Sulu's countdown:
    Over the course of around 12 seconds he counts down from 1810 to 1550 units. What these 260 somethings might be is unclear, but they cannot be less than million-kilometre units and even that would yield a speed of only 72 times the speed of light (Warp 4 on the cubed scale).

    What strikes me is just how closely these numbers are to groupings of "8", as the Enterprise is travelling at Warp 8 during this time. Allowing for some human error from Sulu, if the 12 seconds ought to have been 10.83 and the mysterious units were indeed million-kilometre segments then they'd be travelling at 80 million KM/S.
    IOW, each Warp Factor = 10 million KM/S, nice and neat and tidy (although incredibly slow)
    Is this what was on Gene Coon's mind when he inserted this figures into the dialogue? Sadly, we will never know.

    Billion-kilometre units would equal 61 parsecs a day, more in line with the 22.3 parsecs Enterprise travelled in only a few hours at (mostly) Warp 5. But then we have the problems of a too-fast Enterprise (as detailed above)
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
  7. ChallengerHK

    ChallengerHK Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    I do appreciate the effort in all this, and it's very similar to work I used to do back in the day. That said, I'm not sure there's a reason to even try to work with the FJ warp speed scale. It's very clearly totally out of whack with what we see in several episodes.
     
    Spockskin likes this.
  8. MAGolding

    MAGolding Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2015
    There was a children's program on the Disney Channel from 2007 to 2012 Wizards of Waverly Place about young wizards in training in New York City.

    In the third season Alex Russo meets an English boy, Mason Grayback, in her high school and they eventually become boy friend and girl friend. It turns out Mason is a lot older than he looks, since he remembers when there wasn't a USA, and he hasn't seen young vampire Juliet for 300 years. So either Mason has been held back hundreds of times, or he returned to high school after centuries for some reason. He might seem like a creepy pedophile to many persons. My guess is that he attends a high school just to meet girls, and maybe eat girls, since he is a werewolf.

    So the vampire in twilight might be a creepy pedophile, but at least when he bites people it isn't always bad for them, sometimes they may gain extended youth and longevity, but when Mason bites people he usually digests them.

    It seems to me that the oldest kids in "Miri" would have been about 12 to 14 at the time of the disaster, and so should have been fairly well educated and mature compared to uneducated kids.

    I once found in the census of Lancaster City, Pennsylvania, in 1860, or 1870, or 1880, a household where the oldest person and head of the household was reported to be a 12-year-old boy, who worked in a factory.

    Two centuries ago and earlier, officers in the Royal Navy usually began their careers at about 12 or 14.

    When I was a child in elementary school in a large city, I walked to school, and there were kids you looked a little older serving as crossing guards at some intersections.

    And in present times, up to the present pandemic, it was common for parents to go out and leave their young children in the care of babysitters, often girls, some starting as young as 12 or 14.. Repeat millions of modern parents trust the safetyof their kids to other kids who are sometimes as young as 12 or 14.

    So I guess that the older kids in "Miri" should have behaved a lot more mature, since apparently they had been successful babysitters for the younger kids for centuries.
     
  9. MAGolding

    MAGolding Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2015
    Maybe off screen Trelane's parents gave them a boost to their destination as an apology.

    I guess that Spock found part of his report on the incident hard to write, being hung up on how to describe Trelane, for example. Nothing seemed correct to him. Every description he thought of seemed to involve too much unscientific speculation and assumptions.

    Possibly an official Starfleet form that Spock had to fill out had a description of alien section and Spock was supposed to check or circle or fillin the box or whatever for the description that best described the alien in question. Possibly the Starfleet bureaucrats thought that they had thought of all the possible types of aliens and provide sufficient variety of choices. But every time Spock made a selection he unmade it after second thoughts.

    Possibly Kirk knew that Spock was driving himself crazy trying to get that detail of the form right by selecting the least misleading description, so Kirk jokingly offered a very far out description of Trelane so that the choices on the form would not seem so bad to Spock.

    As for what government Ferris is Commissioner of, Elaan of troyius has some data:

    This sounds like the highest official of the Federation is the Federation High Commissioner.

    in "The Galileo 7" Ferris is usually addressed as "Commissioner"

    And he is described once:

    So his full title seems to be Galactic High Commissioner.

    But in one scene:

    So maybe Ferris is the Federation High Commissioner who is sometimes called the Galactic High Commissioner. or Maybe Ferris is a foreign government's equal or equivalent of the Federation High Commissioner.

    If Ferris represents a foreign government it may be at least as large and powerful as the Federation, or maybe simply more arrogant, to give him the title of Galactic High Commissioner.

    Ferris mentions the regulations that give him authority to give orders to Kirk. Would Starfleet have specific regulations to give foreign officials authority over starship captains?
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2020
  10. Spockskin

    Spockskin Commodore Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2018
    Location:
    Henoch in Charge
    The Federation hadn't been invented at this point in TOS. First reference of the Federation was two episodes later (or five if you use production order) in Arena. During The Galileo Seven, it was still "United Earth". ;)
     
  11. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2016
    If I remember correctly, in the novelization of The Wraith of Khan Peter Prescott (Scott's nephew who died in the first attack) was 15 years old. And Carol Marcus had been worried that Kirk might have suddenly shown up when David was 14 and taken him away to Starfleet.
    I guess that one of the (unintention) effects of the immortality treatment could have been to stunt mental advancement and cognitive abilities, along with physical development.

    Let's face it, neither Miri nor John come off as particular bright.
    But is federation high commissioner and galactic high commissioner the same thing? I'm leaning towards "galactic" indicating something - some organization that is separate from the federation.

    It's interesting that Uhura refers to the individual as "THE" federation high commissioner,
    I would agree.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2020
  12. Warped9

    Warped9 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2003
    Location:
    Brockville, Ontario, Canada
    For what it's worth I completely ignore thw Warp Factor cubed Scale formula as it's completely useless and far too slow given the speeds and distances referenced in the series. Maybe that scale worked before the "time barrier" was broken as referenced in "The Menagerie."
     
    Tenacity and Spockskin like this.
  13. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2016
    Two hundred times the speed of light (max 500 times) would be workable to have the ship visit a new star system weekly. All they would of had to of done is have someone with a passing knowledge of interstellar distances who could revise scripts when a writer wanted to use a obsurdly large number, or reference a generally known star that was simply too far away.

    A ruler and a piece of butcher block paper tacked to a office wall might have helped too. In the fictional universe of Star Trek have the majority of star systems anywhere close to Earth have a inhabital planet.
     
  14. MAGolding

    MAGolding Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2015
    In Broadcast order the 20th episode of TOS was "Court Martial", broadcast on 2 February 1967.

    Jame Finney n enters the office and accuses Kirk of murdering her father, Lt. Commander Ben Finney. After viewing the computer log Commodore Stone also accused Kirk of killing Finney and lying about it.

    Kirk and McCoy enter a club on the base. Kirk meets a number of officers he knows.

    The Vulcanian expedition that Kirk and Timothey were on is puzzling. Was it a starfleet expedition to Vulcan? That seems like an unlikely event to happen a few decades after a Vulcanian and and Earth woman have a child. An expedition with Vulcanian aspects, possibly organized by Vulcanians? Was it an expedition on a ship named Vulcanian?

    After Kirk leaves angry McCoy meets a woman, Arrel Shaw.

    In Stone's office, Kirk talks about his relationship with Ben Finney.

    Later it will be mentioned that Kirk was an ensign when he logged Finney's mistake and their friendship was ended. In the second season episode "A Private Little War" Kirk was already a lieutenant 13 years earlier. Thus the incident on the Republic should have been at least 13 years before "A Private Little War".

    Kirk and Finney met at Starfleet Academy "some years" before "A Private Little War". And after they became close friends Ben Finney named his daughter Jamie after Kirk, sometime during those "some years".

    In "Shore Leave":

    A plebe is a first year cadet. If Kirk's first year ended, and Finnegan graduated or was expelled, almost 16 years earlier, it could have begun more than 16 years earlier. So Jame could have been born as much as 16 years before "Shore Leave" and should have been born at least 13 years before "A Private Little War".

    If one assumes that "Shore Leave" and "Court Martial" happen close together, and that "A Private Little War" is about a year later, Jame should be about 12 to 16in "Court Martal".

    But if someone assumes that the episodes can happen in any order within the five year mission, "Shore Leave" and "A Private Little War" could be as much as almost 6 years before or after "Court Martial" . If Shore Leave" could be up to 6 years before or after Court Martial", Jamie would have been aged 10 to 21 years, or less, in "Court Martial". If "A Private Little War" could be up to 6 years before or after "Court Martial" Jame could be 7 to 19, or younger, in "Court Martial". So Jame is certainly aged 10 to 19, and possibly 12 to 16, in "Court Martial".

    Since Jame's mother is not at the court martial, she might be dead, or possibly living somewhere else, and Jame might be living with a family friend or a relative at Starbase 11.

    The inquiry ends with Kirk demanding a court martial.

    Obviously it could take some time for the officers to arrive at Starbase 11.

    Kirk goes to the Starbase Club again. When there previusly, Timothey asked Kirk if the repairs were a big job.

    So if the repairs are almost complete and "couple of days" was a good estimate, this could be a day or two after Kirk was in the club before.

    In the club, Kirk meets Areel Shaw, wearing the same dress as before.

    Kirk makes it sound like this is the same night McCoy met Areel and Kirk came as soon as he herd she was in the club.

    Areel tells Kirk that she will be prosecuting him and recommends he hire Samuel Cogley as his defense lawyer.

    In the court martial, the charges are:

    It is revealed that Kirk was an ensign when he reported Finney aboard the Republic.

    The computer record of events on the bridge is shown. Everything shown should be identical to what actually happened, except for Kirk pressing the ejection button during yellow alert, so that persons who were on the bridge at the time would not notice anything different from what they remembered.

    In Kirk's room at the starbase:

    Kirk did not literally train his whole life to be a starship captain. There must have been some moment, however early in his childhood, when he decided he wanted to become a starship captain. and began training himself more or less intensively.

    Jame Finney enters and says she no longer blames Kirk for her father's death.

    She says "that night", so presumably at least 36 to 48 hours have passed and the night she accused Kirk is no longer "last night". So at least 36 to 48 hours in 1.4 to 2.8 stardate units makes at least 12.85 to 34.28 hours per stardate unit.

    Kirk and Cogley's statements imply that Kirk staked everything on his judgement 2 days ago. If that was when Kirk demanded an immediate court martial in Stone's office on stardate 2948.9, there would have been approximately 48 hours, may be 36 to 60, in a difference of 1 stardate unit, and hus about 36 to 60 hours per stardate unit.

    Or maybe the two days earlier, about 36 to 60 hours, were at Stardate 2948.5, 1.4 stardate units earlier, thus making about 25.7 to 42.8 hours per stardate unit.

    Or maybe the two days earlier, about 36 to 60 hours, were at Stardate 2947.3, 2.6 stardate units earlier, thus making about 13.8 to 23 hours per stardate unit.

    Or maybe the two days earlier, about 36 to 60 hours, were during the ion storm at Stardate 2945.7, 4.2 stardate units earlier, thus making about 8.5 to 14.2 hours per stardate unit.

    Of course that is assuming that Kirk meant two 48 hour days. Perhaps Kirk was talking about workdays, or watches. If there are 3 or 4 watches per day, a watch should be 6 or 8 hours long. So two 6 to 8 hour watches might be 9 to 20 hours. If there was one stardate unit in that interval, there would be 9 to 20 hours in a stardate unit.

    Or maybe the two watches earlier, about 9 to 20 hours, were at Stardate 2948.5, 1.4 stardate units earlier, thus making about 6.4 to 14.2 hours per stardate unit.

    Or maybe the two watches earlier, about 9 to 20 hours, were at Stardate 2947.3, 2.6 stardate units earlier, thus making about 3.4 to 7.6 hours per stardate unit.

    Or maybe the two watches earlier, about 9 to 20 hours, were during the ion storm at Stardate 2945.7, 4.2 stardate units earlier, thus making about 2.1 to 4.7 hours per stardate unit.

    Sometime between stardate 2947.3 and stardate 2948.5, Jame Finney accused Kirk of murdering her father. Sometime between stardate 2948.5 and stardate 2948.9, and thus 0 to 1.6 stardate units later, Kirk mentioned that incident to Commodore Stone:

    Assuming that a day is 24 hours and a night lasts half of that, or 12 hours, that night should have been over by the time Kirk said that, and so at least 0 to 12 hours should have passed since then to reach the end of that night. The previous night would remain last night all though the day and all through the next night. The night of Jame's visit to the office would stay "last night" until the next night was over and became the new "Last night". So the night Jame was there would become "last night" as soon as it was over 0 to 12 hours after Jame's visit, and continue to be "last night" for another 24 hours until the next night ended. So there were 0 to 36 hours in 0. to 1.6 stardate units.

    Combining this data together, I deduce that in "Court Martial" there should be about 13.8 to 23 hours, or about 25.7 to 42.8 hours, or about 36 to 60 hours, in a stardate unit.

    In the court room, Cogley mentions various legal codes:

    Cogley demands that the court martial reconvene on the starship Enterprise.

    Captain's Log, Stardate 2950.1. After due consideration, the general court-martial has reconvened on board the Enterprise.

    This is 2.8 stardate units after the beginning of the episode on stardate 2947.3, and 4.4 stardate units after the ion storm on stardate 2945.7.

    In Engineering Finney says:

    This may - or may not - mean that Kirk has been a captain for years. Maybe Kirk was captain of the Enterprise for years, the years include when Kirk was captain of another ship, maybe the years Finney watched began before Kirk became captain.

    I think that is all the chronological information in "Court Martial"
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
  15. MAGolding

    MAGolding Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2015
    In broadcast order the 21st episode of TOS was "The Return of the Archons", broadcast on 9 February 1967.

    On planet beta Three, Lieutenants Sulu and O'Neil run from the lawgrivers. They split up and Sulu is adsorbed into the Body just before he is beamed aboard.

    Kirk Spock, McCoy, Lindstrom, Leslie, and another guard beam into a town right before the red hour when the Festival begins at 6 o'clock. 6 o'clock?

    Kirk's party avoids the Festival and stays in Regar's house over the night.

    Hacom enters with two lawgivers. Tamar is killed. Kirk defies the lawgivers who leave. Regar leads Kirk's group to a hiding spot before the lawgivers return.

    As they walk the streets, Landru takes control of passers by, who grab clubs and to clobber the group. They stun a bunch, and find O'Neil among them, and carry him with them to the hiding spot.

    They are also told about the Archons.

    Landru is beaming heat beams at the Enterprise, commanded by Scott. They need all their power for the shields and can't spare any power for the engines. And:

    They are stunned by hypersonic beams.

    So there are the 12 hours that the Festival lasted, plus a little other time, between stardate 3156.2 and stardate 3157.4. So maybe 12 to 15 hours in 1.2 stardate units or 10 to 12.5 hours per stardate unit. Making the dubious assumption that the planet C 111 B III hours are the same length as Earth hours, of course..

    Kirk, Spock, Leslie, & Lindstrom wake in a dungeon.

    They contact Mr Scott:

    So about six hours have passed since the last time they communicated. So 6 hours pass from a time between stardate 3156.2 and stardate 3157.4 and another time between stardate 3157.4 and stardate 3158.7. Assuming that at least 0.1 stardate unit elapses, there should be 6 hours in 0.1 to 2.5 stardate units. So there should be 2.4 to 60 hours in a stardate unit. And those should be Earth hours.

    They later learn more about Landru:

    When they confront Landru:

    Regar says that some people say the time of Landru was as much as six thousand years ago, but Kirk later twice says that the time of Landru was six thousand years ago, as if the date was certain, even though Kirk could not have learned anything more about the subject. Landru does not contradict Kirk, so maybe the people who said the time of Landru was six thousand years ago were correct.

    My interpretation of the name is that Beta Three is the planet orbiting third from the star Beta, and the star Beta is in the star system C 111. I expect that the "Beta" means the star is the second most luminous star in that double or multiple star system, what should have been called C 111 B according according to astronomical convention, thus making the planet C 111 B Three or C 111 B iii in science fiction convention.

    This is 2.5 stardate units after stardate 3156.2, and with 10 to 12.5 hours per stardate unit it should be about 25 to 31.25 hours, or 1.04 to 1.3 days, after the first stardate. Making the dubious assumption that the planet C 111 B III hours are the same length as Earth hours, of course.

    If there should be 2.4 to 60 hours in a stardate unit as calculated in another place above the total elapsed time would be 6 to 150 hours or 6.25 days. And those should be Earth hours.
     
  16. MAGolding

    MAGolding Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2015
    This source:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties#:~:text=The total number of military,deadliest conflicts in human history.

    Breaks down deaths by type and by country.

    The total of combat deaths and missing in action is given as 8,042,189, total military deaths including the previuos column total 8,573,054 to 10,824,236, civilian deathsby militry action and war crimes total 2,250,099, excess civilian deaths in the war period,attributed to malnutrition and disease (not including the influenza pandemic) total 5,411,000 to 6,100,000, and the grand total is 15,000,000 to 22,000,000[79]

    So you will have to work hard with those figures and the various sources for them to find some way to get the number of deaths down to "only" six million, and then explain why Spock might choose to use that interpretation of the data.

    World War Two was a much larger and bloodier conflict.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#:~:text=World War II was the,country count of human losses.

    The military deaths from all causes for the various countries total up as 21,000,000 to 25,000,000, and the military deaths seem like the category that the war fatalities might be reduced to by someone seeking to make them as low as possible. And someone would have to find a way to reduce the military deaths by about half to get them down to Spock's eleven million.`

    So good luck trying to prove that Spock was using some sort of restricted definition of persons killed in those wars.

    I think that the best idea is that Star Trek happens in an alternate universe where the two world wars had somewhat different histories and many millions fewer people were killed in them.

    As I remember, the novelization referred to Peter Preston as "the child" in his first scene and said that Peter was 14, not 15. And my copy of the script describes Peter as 14. Ike Eisenmann was 19 when his scenes were filmed. So did the creators decide to make the character older, or merely hire an older actor who they thought looked like he could be a big 14-year-old?
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2020
  17. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2009
    Location:
    North Wales
    SPOCK: They do seem to have escaped the carnage of your first three world wars, Doctor.
    MCCOY: They have slavery, gladiatorial games, despotism.
    SPOCK: Situations quite familiar to the six million who died in your first world war, the eleven million who died in your second, the thirty seven million who died in your third. Shall I go on?​

    Memory Alpha cites a possible reconciliation between those figures
    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/World_War_II
    "Spock may have been referring solely to civilian casualties as a result of "slavery" and "despotism" rather than the total war itself. Eleven million is a number frequently given for civilian deaths solely from Nazi policies. This might explain a figure of six million that he gave for World War I, too, as that is about an average (slightly on the low side) estimate of civilian deaths out of a World War I total of about sixteen million."​
     
  18. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2016
    But why solely the German' policies? Why wouldn't Spock have included Russia and Japan?
    I took it to mean Finney had watched Kirk's career advancement.
    I wonder what happen to the population upon Landru's shut-down and the release of the populace from control,

    Some people seem to think that "festival" was simply a release of control for 12 some hour, without control the populace acted as we saw them. After 12 hours control was re-imposed. If this is true then when Landru was shut-down the populace should have immediate gone into festival.

    Personally I think that Landru was causing festival behavor, Laudru was causing people to act as they did, maybe as a reminder why they (supposedly) needed Landru's control the majority of the time.

    Without Landru, the people would have simply been ... themselves?
     
  19. Spockskin

    Spockskin Commodore Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2018
    Location:
    Henoch in Charge
    If you go by production order, Court Martial comes before Shore Leave. During Shore Leave, we find Angela Martine has become Angela Teller. Did she meet Lt. Teller at Starbase 11 when off-duty during Court Martial, have a whirlwind romance and get quickly married before she shipped out? But a month later she's flirting with Rodriguez? Gossip continues to fly about her infidelity in the Enterprise Rumor Mill. Stay tuned-in.
    Mr. and Mrs. Teller?
    [​IMG]
     
  20. MAGolding

    MAGolding Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2015
    In broadcast order "Space Seed" is the 22nd episode of TOS, broadcast on 16 February 1967.

    Apparently their sensor detect a spaceship and they head toward it to investigate before the episode begins.

    In any case, Spock has detected a spaceship before Uhura picks up the distress signal.

    So there have been no Earth and/or Federation voyages into this little traveled sector for years.

    According to the calendar used in Kirk's era in "Space Seed", DY-100 class ships were built in the 1990s. And thus they should have been built sometime between 1990 SS and 1990 SS, SS standing for the "Space Seed" calendar.

    Apparently there is some controversy about whether Spock and McCoy agree that the last world war on Earth was also called the Eugenics wars, or whether Spock and McCoy agree on that subject. I think that Spock and McCoy agree that the Last world war - not given a specific number - was the same conflict as the Eugenics Wars,and therefore there were no world wars, though possibly other wars, on Earth after the Eugenics Wars. .

    The Eugenics Wars happened during the mid-1990s and thus during part or all of the period between 1993 and one third SS and 1996 and two thirds SS.

    Kirk may want the tractor beam to create simulated "gravity" on the SS Botany Bay, or he may be preparing to later tow the SS Botany Bay,

    When a party beams over to the SS Botany Bay there seems to be artificial gravity on board the ship. Possibly Starfleet boots can be magnetized to stick to steel (?) deck plating, and that was done off screen. Or maybe the Enterprise accelerated at about 1 g while towing the SS Botany Bay with a tractor beam to provide gravity on the SS Botany Bay. Otherwise the SS Botany Bay must have had artificial gravity generators to provide gravity in the chamber. And I have to wonder whether the SS Botany Bay had a way to used generated gravity for propulsion.

    So if the was from the 1990s and the voyage lasted for "centuries", the date of "Space Seed" should be one to ten centuries in the future, and thus sometime between 2090 SS and 2999 SS.

    Scott mentions "atomic power", not "atomic rockets", so it is possible that the atomic power is used by some sort of gravity generator or other advanced space drive.

    McGivers, the historian, tells them that suspended animaton was used for even mere interplanetary travel up until about the year 2018. "About the year 2018" may mean 2018 plus or minus 2 years, or bettween 2016 and 2020, or it might mean 2018 plus or minus 5 years and thus between 2013 and 2023. I suspect that if space travel became much faster in or soon before 2015 Mcgivers would have said "about the year 2015", if space travel became much faster in or soon after 2020, McGivers would have said "about the year 2020." Thus space flight becoming much faster should have happen sometime between 2016 SS and 2019 SS.

    McGivers doesn't say whether the much faster form of space travel after "about the year 2018" was the first form of warp driver or merely a much faster form of interplanetary travel. In any case, neither warp drive nor any other form of rapid interstellar travel should have been introduced on Earth before the period of about 2016-2019 SS, and possibly not for decades or centuries later.

    McGivers says that it took years just to travel from one planet to another. Carey Wilber created the story idea and Gene L. Coon and Carey Wilber wrote the teleplay. They may have thought that by depicting an early interstellar voyage taken hundreds of times as long as as interplanetary flights in contemporary spaceships they were depicting the vast difference between interplanetary and interstellar distances. But distances to even the closest stars are tens of thousands of times as far as distances to even the farthest planets in our solar system, and would last tens of thousands of times as long.

    Marla, the ship's historian, believes that the Botany Bay left Earth during the 20th century SS.

    Khan briefly wakes up:

    So if they believe that Khan left Earth in the 1990s SS, exactly two centuries after that would be in 2190 to 2199 SS, two centuries plus or minus half a century would be sometime between 2140 and 2499 SS, and two centuries plus or minus a century, the loosest interpretation I am willing to make, would be sometime between 2090 and 2299 SS.

    That should be about 9 hours after stardate 3141.9

    On the bridge:

    Spock says the DY-100 class vessels had simple nuclear powered engines and were designed for interplanetary travel only. I note he doesn't say that they had nuclear powered rockets, so it is possible that they had some sort of gravity drive instead of rockets.

    So apparently the Enterprise was headed from star system A to Star system B when it encountered the Botany Bay, and is now headed to a new destination, Starbase Twelve in star system C.

    Kirk criticizes McGiver's performance on the Botany Bay:

    So a new day has not yet begun.

    When Khan wakes in Sickbay:

    KHAN: I remember a voice. Did I hear it say I had been sleeping for two centuries?
    MCCOY: That is correct.

    Two centuries are repeated.

    `

    By the early 1990s Kirk may means sometime between 1990 SS and the end of 1994 SS, which would put "Space Seed" sometime between 2090 SS and 2294 SS if the interval is between 100 and 300 years. Or Kirk may mean the part of the 1990s that was before the mid 1990s, before 1993 and a third SS, which would put "Space Seed" sometime between 2090 SS and 2294 and a third SS, if it is 100 to 300 year sin the future..

    And:

    And for a third time two hundred years is specified.

    Again Kirk says that Khan was from the 20th century SS.

    According to Spock a group of those young supermen seized power simultaneously in over forty nations. That was a sizable fraction of Earth's land and population.. And it is later said that Khan was already a ruler elsewhere.

    Ship's historian McGivers introduces herself to Khan and tries to ask questions.

    This implies that McGivers might not merely be assigned to duty as ship's historian but actually be a professional historian with a degree in history.

    After the dinner in honor of Khan, Khan pressures McGivers to helping him take the ship.

    The size and location of Khan's realm is not specified clearly, but i was obviously very impressive.

    After Khan takes control of the ship and cut's off life support to the bridge, Kirk makes a log entry:

    Obviously there are over 9 hours between stardate 3141.9 and stardate 3142.8. So at least 9 hours in 0.9 stardate units means there are at least 10 hours in a stardate unit.

    After Kirk regains control of the Enterprise:

    If there are at least 10 hours in a stardate unit in "Space Seed", stardate 3143.3, 1.4 stardate units after stardate 3141.3, should be at least 14 hours after that stardate and at least 15 hours after encountering the Botany Bay.

    If I was one of those supermen, I would think that my talents would be wasted grubbing for survival on some harsh colony planet, and find the prospect of being brainwashed into being disgustingly non aggressive and law abiding and to use my talents for good instead of evil in a highly advanced and comfortable society to be infinitely preferable. I have always felt that it was better to serve in heaven than to rule, let alone to serve Khan, in hell.

    So I find the lack of mention of asking the other seventy superpersons what they choose to be a bit undemocratic and tyrannical.

    So the present heading of the Enterprise is taking it close of Ceti Alpha, often supposed to be Alpha Ceti. Is the Enterprise heading for Starbase 12 in the Gamma 400 star system, or is it back on its original course to the unmentioned Star System B, or perhaps ordered by Starfleet command to a third destination?

    You may remember my discussion of "Where No Man Has Gone Before".

    If a viewer in 1966 had sharp enough vision, and fast enough, they might have seen and remembered the dates when Mitchell and Dehner were born from their files, and the numbers on Kirk's tombstone.

    And they might have interpreted those dates and numbers as being years in two different calendar systems, counting the years from two different epochs in time.

    Thus some viewers could theoretically have decided as early as 1966 that several different Earth calendars, counting the years from different epochs, are used in the era of TOS, and realized that assuming that any year mentioned would be a year in the Anno Domini system would be an unjustified assumption.

    Other viewers in 1966 might have assumed that those numbers were stardates and not years, and thus data relevant to the stardate system instead of the calendar system.

    And most and maybe all viewers in 1966 would not have been able to see those numbers clearly enough, and so would not have thought anything about their chronological importance.

    But every viewer would have been likely to have heard the following dialog in the sickbay:

    So someone named Tarbolde wrote a poem title "The nightingale Woman" on the Canopius planet in the year 1996 TM. TM is short for the Tarbolde-Mitchell calendar. If Tarbolde was an Earth person writing poems on a planet of another star in the Earth 1996 TM, it would be very probable that Earth had invented the warp drive before the year 1996 TM.

    And Mitchell said that the poem was written during "the past couple of centuries". Many people argue that means within the last few centuries, that Mitchell was speaking loosely like real people do, and thus that 1996 TM was probably between 100 and 1,000 years earlier, making he date of "Where No Man Has Gone before" sometime between 2096 DM and 2996 DM.

    And I claim, that writers of fiction can let their characters speak like real people when those characters are not mentioning important data about their fictional setting. But when writers have their characters mention important facts about their fictional setting that readers or viewers will never learn from other sources, the writers have to have those characters speak literal truth. The only exceptions to that policy of literal truth when mentioning data about the fictional setting is when it is a plot point that the characters are in error or lying, and their mistakes or lies are revealed to the audience.

    There is no scene in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" where it is revealed that Mitchell was wrong or speaking carelessly and 1996 TM was more than 200 years, a literal "couple of centuries" in the past. The script writer Samuel A. Peebles had no way of knowing whether Star Trek would become a series, or whether he would ever write for it again.

    Since "Where No Man Has Gone Before" never stated or revealed that Mitchell was using the vaguer meaning of "couple", I say that Mitchell meant that 1996 TM was between 100 and 200 years in the past, and thus that the current year was sometime between 2096 TM and 2196 TM.

    The very first lines in the episode are:

    And later:

    So if the interstellar Earth space ship Valiant left on a voyage "over two centuries" before a year sometime between 2096 TM and 2196 TM, the year when the Valiant left Earth would have been sometime between 1896 TM and 1996 TM, or even earlier

    When I believed that all dates in Star Trek were given in the same dating system and that was the Anno Domini dating system, I believed that the Valiant left Earth sometime between AD 1896 and Ad 1996, and that interplanetary travel took years and required suspended animation until about the year AD 2018, and that warp drive was not invented until about the year AD 2018, or possibly not for decades or centuries later.

    That is a contradiction. So I theorized that in Star Trek Earth acquired warp drive for rapid interstellar travel twice. The first time was by a secret group sometime during the 19th or 20th century, who apparently all left Earth and left no record behind on Earth. They may have explored the stars and founded an interstellar civilization and society with various aliens. They may have lost track of the location of Earth and been unable to make contact with it.

    The SS Valiant would have been a ship of the first group, and Khan and his people on Earth would not have known about that first group and so would have had to use a DY-100 ship to escape from Earth.

    And Earth rediscovered the warp drive decades or centuries later and began exploring the stars and contacting aliens and forming an interstellar civilization and society. And eventually the two groups of interstellar travelers from Earth might have met and reunited, perhaps during the era of TOS.

    But suppose that in 1966 to 1967 a fan realized that dates didn't have to be given in Anno Domini dating, something which I realized a considerable time later.

    They might have realized that if the Earth developed warp drive by 1996 TM that could still have been after 2018 SS.

    If "Space Seed" has to be by 2293 or 2294 SS, and if the Valiant had to leave Earth by 200 years earlier, that would have been by about 2093 or 94 SS, which could be as much as 75 years after 2018 SS. So if the TM and SS calendars are different calendars, counting the years from different epochs, Earth can invent warp drive only once in Star Trek history.