Yeah, that's why there's only like a 15-CD box set of all the music from TOS
TNG changes to TOS
- Thread starter allstar77
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Yeah, that's why there's only like a 15-CD box set of all the music from TOS
+1
suarezguy said:
Interesting.
This is another of the things I've seen people criticize TNG for: the fact that TOS forced our crew to make decisions quickly in tense situations, and act more on the seat of their pants, hence increasing the excitement; whereas TNG would see "endless" scenes of them leaving the bridge to sit around the conference table and debate what to do next, slowing down the narrative tension in the process.My own feelings are kinda half-and-half. I see the TNG method as being more professional and analytical, possibly even more realistic in a way. But on the other hand, I do think the writers fell back on those conference room scenes as an easy way to do exposition following the ad break for anyone who is just joining the show part-way through (the ever dreaded and forced sounding "... as you know Captain, our blah-blah-de-blah is going to blah-blah unless we blah" type dialogue that is forever the bane of naturalistic writing). All of which is kind of redundant, given the use of the formal Captain's Log is supposed to fulfil that script function anyway.
And at worst, they sometimes just came across as padding to fill the hour. 
There is something pleasingly 'visceral' about a TOS script demanding that Captain Kirk make a tough decision quickly in the face of oncoming danger, rather than having the time to sit down and debate the issue and all its complications extensively with the department heads. It's probably better drama, though done correctly there's no reason the TNG way of doing things couldn't be presented just as dramatically.
Working as a Project Manager with many projects, I actually have to do this layout almost every meeting, so that people remember the context. So, I think that conference table scenes are very realistic. In fact, I always like conference table scenes.
I don't know. I love the slower pace of TNG. I love the fact that they think more than fight.
I remember they said about the episode where they could not sleep that it was slow. I loved it! I did not want to rush it.
Gotta admit, I lean more toward the TOS approach. The conference room scenes may be more "professional" and "thoughtful" and all, but they just kill the pacing sometimes . . . and often manage to leech the fun and excitement out of even the tensest or most thrilling situation.
A notable offender: that VOYAGER ep about the interstellar drag race. Okay, maybe not the most highbrow concept in the world, but if you're going to do an outer-space drag race episode, commit to the concept and get to the race as soon as possible. Don't force to us to suffer through an interminable conference room scene, in which the crew endlessly debate the pros and cons of taking part in the race, including the political and Prime Directive implications, before actually getting to the race!
Heck, in real life, has anyone ever looked forward to attending a meeting?
"Don't forget! Big project meeting in Conference Room B today!"
"Oh, boy! I can't wait!"
Committee meetings are usually the opposite of drama . . .
A notable offender: that VOYAGER ep about the interstellar drag race. Okay, maybe not the most highbrow concept in the world, but if you're going to do an outer-space drag race episode, commit to the concept and get to the race as soon as possible. Don't force to us to suffer through an interminable conference room scene, in which the crew endlessly debate the pros and cons of taking part in the race, including the political and Prime Directive implications, before actually getting to the race!
Heck, in real life, has anyone ever looked forward to attending a meeting?
"Don't forget! Big project meeting in Conference Room B today!"
"Oh, boy! I can't wait!"
Committee meetings are usually the opposite of drama . . .
Gotta admit, I lean more toward the TOS approach. The conference room scenes may be more "professional" and "thoughtful" and all, but they just kill the pacing sometimes . . . and often manage to leech the fun and excitement out of even the tensest or most thrilling situation.
A notable offender: that VOYAGER ep about the interstellar drag race. Okay, maybe not the most highbrow concept in the world, but if you're going to do an outer-space drag race episode, commit to the concept and get to the race as soon as possible. Don't force to us to suffer through an interminable conference room scene, in which the crew endlessly debate the pros and cons of taking part in the race, including the political and Prime Directive implications, before actually getting to the race!
Heck, in real life, has anyone ever looked forward to attending a meeting?
"Don't forget! Big project meeting in Conference Room B today!"
"Oh, boy! I can't wait!"
Committee meetings are usually the opposite of drama . . .
+1
Except TOS had PLENTY of 'conference room' scenes too (Kirk's famous "Risk is our business..." speech from TOS Return to Tomorrow was done in the conference room setting. TOS though, did it when it was appropriate to the situation of a story. If the 1701 was in combat; or in a situation where it would be bad for Kirk/Spock/whomever to not be on the Bridge, discussions about possible decisions were held there.
As for Scotty being on the TOS Bridge - there was a physical Engineering station on the 1701 Bridge; so it wouldn't be illogical to see him there, even though the character prefered to sit in Main Engineering.
And, while McCoy didn't have a Bridge station, again, he usually came up if Kirk needed to speak to him (and it would be bad for Kirk to leave the Bridge); OR McCoy was called up because there was a Bridge officer injured, or injuries on the Bridge were a possibility, and they wanted Bones on hand just in case.
By contrast, the one TNG episode I recall where I thought they SHOULD have stayed on the Bridge was TNG's Q-Who where, right after Guinan tells Picard, "That's a Borg ship....protect yourself"; and the Borg beam over a few scouts, lock a tractor beam and cut out a portion of the ship, Picard finally fires back and terminates the beam...what's the first thing he does? Take the ship out of there? No, he calls a "Conference" and ALL senior Bridge staff just walk off their stations into the conference room. My response watching it was: "WTF?!"
^^^
I doubt you'd have ever seen a scene like that on TOS.
William Riker was badly written from the start. We find out that the reason he initially ended his relationship with Deanna was because he wanted to make Captain before he turns 30 years old. Yet, throughout TNG's run, we find Riker has been/is offered promotion/starship command three times, and turned them all down:
In TNG's Season One episode Arsenal of Freedom Riker himself confirms he was offered command of the U.S.S. Drake; but turned it down feeling it would be more advantageous to be First Officer on the 1701-D U.S.S. Enterprise.
In TNG's Second Season Episode The Icarus Factor, Riker is offered command of the U.S.S. Ares (and hell Lt. Worf wants to go with him); but again, Riker turns down a command.
In TNG's Third Season Best of Both Worlds he's offered the U.S.S. Melbourne and turns the command down again with hardly a thought - and only reconsiders when Picard orders him to, yet STILL in the end turns down a promotion when all is said and done - which is insane when you consider that they lost am LOT of experienced senior officers and Riker could probably make a real difference on another ship.
^^^
At that point that when anyone watching would come to the conclusion that Riker talks a LOT but does little - and honestly, I agreed with Captain Jellico's assessment of Riker in Chain of Command when he tried to tell Jellico, he hadn't implemented Jellico's ordered shift rotation change because the department heads told Riker it would cause them problems. (Hell, even Picard looks embarrassed because if Riker had failed to follow such an order given by Picard, I'm sure Picard would have chewed him out too.)
Ladies and gentlemen the TNG era Prime Directive has now reached a new level of absurd.
Gotta admit, I lean more toward the TOS approach. The conference room scenes may be more "professional" and "thoughtful" and all, but they just kill the pacing sometimes . . . and often manage to leech the fun and excitement out of even the tensest or most thrilling situation.
A notable offender: that VOYAGER ep about the interstellar drag race. Okay, maybe not the most highbrow concept in the world, but if you're going to do an outer-space drag race episode, commit to the concept and get to the race as soon as possible. Don't force to us to suffer through an interminable conference room scene, in which the crew endlessly debate the pros and cons of taking part in the race, including the political and Prime Directive implications, before actually getting to the race!
Heck, in real life, has anyone ever looked forward to attending a meeting?
"Don't forget! Big project meeting in Conference Room B today!"
"Oh, boy! I can't wait!"
Committee meetings are usually the opposite of drama . . .
My favorites tend to be the conference meetings held during the actual emergency itself, like Q Who. Instead of having a conference meeting in front of the Borg cube that we just battled, how about we run and then have the meeting? Or have the meeting while running?
Really depends on the job, I guess. I am happy with my job and our meetings are not boring - they are very productive 
Really depends on the job, I guess. I am happy with my job and our meetings are not boring - they are very productive
But would they make a good TV series?
I've had some very productive conference calls, too, but I'm not sure they're the stuff of gripping television . . . .
(There's a reason you never actually see Castle writing or talking to his editor or reviewing his royalty statements on CASTLE. Solving murder mysteries is much more entertaining than the actual day-to-day life of a writer.)
Granted, it can be hard to avoid the occasional conference room scene. I keep vowing that I'm going to write a Trek novel that doesn't have a single conference room scene in it, but I'm not sure I've ever been able to manage it!
Except they called it a briefing room. So it was completely different.
That's not bad writing. The tension between those two factors was intentional; despite the ambitions that Riker had always had, once he was part of the Enterprise crew, he realized he was reluctant to leave. Partly because first officer of the flagship was a more important position than captain of a smaller ship, partly because he felt he had so much to learn from Picard... and, by the time of BOBW, because he was simply happy where he was and started to realize that maybe there were more important things in life than career advancement.
We often start out our adult lives or careers with certain goals and expectations, then discover different priorities along the way. There's nothing unrealistic about Riker going through the same kind of change.
(Indeed, Riker's arc in BOBW reflects what Michael Piller himself was going through in real life. When Piller wrote Part 1, he was debating with himself whether it would be better to advance his career by leaving Trek for a showrunner gig on another program, or to stay with TNG where he was happy. And he, like Riker, ultimately chose to stay where he was happy rather than blindly pursue advancement for its own sake.
This is exactly how I would characterize the difference.
There were plenty of situations in TNG where we'd fade out on the crew facing up against a threat of some kind on the bridge view-screen, and then fade back to them sitting around the conference table debating what to do about it (implying that some degree of time had passed between the two events). The TOS method for those kinds of moments was generally more exciting, certainly more fast-paced, as they'd really play up the tension of the situation, with Kirk/Spock/McCoy debating what to do in a quick round-robin of ideas right there on the bridge.Absolutely.
There is a place for these kinds of conference room scenes, where they are appropriate. But as Greg Cox ably pointed out in his example on the previous page, sometimes one would feel that the 24th century Trek shows' writers used the conference room as a kind of crutch, either to pad-out-the-hour, or as an exposition scene, rather than because it was actually dramatically appropriate to do so.
It always struck me as being a hold-over from the eighteenth century naval type movies, where it wasn't uncommon to see the ship's Doctor standing right there on the bridge next to the captain.
Definitely. And given that Scotty was third in command, it's not unreasonable for him to be there in a lot of situations either. Sure he's the engineer, but that doesn't mean he has to be in engineering.
I think the thing that bothered me about LaForge was they went to this effort to move the character off the bridge and give him what should've been some dramatically appealing things to do. But then, so many times, in a crisis he'd run to the bridge and transfer engineering functions. Which I think killed the reason to move him.
suarezguy said:
Interesting.
The writers occasionally overused them (I agree most notably in "Q Who") but I thought they were usually a good mix of necessary, not-overdone exposition and the characters giving interesting perspectives.
Yes, but there are so many production reasons why this happened and you can't discount them. Levar Burton, as an actor, enjoyed his time on set interacting with the rest of the cast and if all of his scenes were simply himself in Engineering with a bunch of extras, he understandably would have found this frustrating and isolating.
Additionally, as a production they have to factor in the time and effort of dressing and lighting each standing set and if it saves time, meaning they get their shoot done in the standard 8-day schedule, then they would condense Geordi's input as engineer onto an existing bridge scene. It saves so much time, energy and money and this will always win out in television productions, every single time. Some of this would have happened after consulting the writers and changing the scene, having Geordi deliver his lines from the bridge set rather than engineering.
Of course a fan could have trouble reconciling this with how it "should have" been presented in the story, but it's a TV production first and foremost and fans just have to deal with that fact.
Ooh, good point. Where TNG's conference room meetings tended to bring the pacing to a grinding halt, tensions could be built up in DS9's rooms.
Which goes to show that the Observation Lounge needed a good brawl now and then
(now that I think about it, the Observation Lounge in First Contact was a site for one of the movie's best scenes, and that's becuse it was a continuation of the previous scene. And even then, it wasn't really a conference room, just a room for Picard to work in and Lily to argue with Picard and so to forward the plot. There were very few arguments in the observation lounge in the show, by contrast).
The McCoy thing is tricky. You want him on the bridge, interacting with Kirk and Spock, since that's such a great dynamic, but, yeah, it doesn't always make sense and it's odd that he has no designated station so he's often just kinda loitering around the bridge.
Confession: I once realized that I had McCoy in two places at once, down in sickbay where he belonged AND up on the bridge during a crisis. I ended up having to rewrite the bridge scenes and give McCoy's dialogue to another character.
Confession: I once realized that I had McCoy in two places at once, down in sickbay where he belonged AND up on the bridge during a crisis. I ended up having to rewrite the bridge scenes and give McCoy's dialogue to another character.
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