TITAN too diverse?

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

^And it only takes one person to speak out or say something for their to be change, especially when it comes to bigotry. If only more people would speak out when they witness a form of bigotry or ignorance.

But, then again, I believe in a better world, a better tomorrow despite my pragmatic nature.

 

[BrotherBenny]

I always speak up when someone expresses a bigoted opinion because such bigotry offends me.

I also correct people when they use the term "racism" because it is a misnomer. All people on this planet are part of the human race, and since there are no aliens around, how can someone be racist? When they ask what you call someone instead of a racist, I say you can call them small-minded or a bigot, but neither is polite.

 

[LightningStorm]

Xeris-mas said:
... the term "racism" [...] is a misnomer. All people on this planet are part of the human race, and since there are no aliens around, how can someone be racist?

The English language has ruined (or perhaps a better term is 'expanded') the definition of what a "race" is. Human is our species. Native American/Caucasian/African American etc is our "ethnic group." The term "race" has become a universal word with multiple definitions that happens to be a catch-all for "species," "nationality," or "ethnic group."

So if one is a racist against Klingons, racism is an accurate term. Exactly the same way that being racist against say Asians is racism is also accurate terminology.

I would be more open to one arguing that "racism" isn't a correct term for speciesism than the other way around but technically it is correct for both. As we all know language grows and changes over time and this is one such instance.

Dictionary definition of race from M/W:

Main Entry:
race
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle French, generation, from Old Italian razza
Date:
1580

1: a breeding stock of animals
2 a: a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b: a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics
3 a: an actually or potentially interbreeding group within a species; also : a taxonomic category (as a subspecies) representing such a group b: breed c: a category of humankind that shares certain distinctive physical traits
4obsolete : inherited temperament or disposition5: distinctive flavor, taste, or strength

Interestingly enough (from 3c above) we could use the term racism for prejudice against Albinos.

 

[Trent Roman]

Xeris-mas said:
I also correct people when they use the term "racism" because it is a misnomer. All people on this planet are part of the human race, and since there are no aliens around, how can someone be racist? When they ask what you call someone instead of a racist, I say you can call them small-minded or a bigot, but neither is polite.

While I agree in theory, that's a bit problematic in practice; a bit of a Catch-22, really. We know discrimination against groups popularly identified as 'races' exist, and it's hard to tackle such prejudice without simultaneously defining it. Personally, I'm comfortable with thinking of 'race' and 'racism' as sociological categories, as long as everybody involved understands that the biological definition of the word doesn't apply.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[JD]

exalted one said:
There is nothing wrong with a bit of good-natured "bigotry", as you call it (although I'd rather call it "frankness, with a dash of healthy cynism"). Hachesa is right, Klingons ARE drunkards and Romulans DO have different moral values when it comes to life and honor. The point is not to deny the very existence of differences, but to live and work together regardless of the differences. That's what "diversity" means to me.
Vale is actually worse than Hachesa, because Hachesa purely expresses his belief about Klingons and Romulans, but Vale goes out of her way to suppress him from expressing it. Hachesa is not harming anybody, but Vale is.

Yeah, she did and IMO she was right to do it, because there is no way that bigotry can be a good thing. The problem is not that he feels that way, the problem is that he is saying those things, and we know for a fact that those things are not always true, we know there Klingons and Romulans who do not alwasy act that way.

I don't really see how Vale is harming him, all she is doiong is keeping him from saying those things, I doubt that she is actually trying forcing him not to think them. IMO the only way she could actually be harming someone is if she were to actually go in a pyschically remove those thoughts from his head.

Whatever Vale represents, is is not "diversity", it is more like "melting pot mentality". In her world, everybody has to think in the same terms, in the same ways - they are allowed to dress differently, speak different languages, buy different cars, enjoy different movies, but they are no longer allowed to *think* differently. Instead of simply putting their differences aside, they are forced to pretend that their differences are nonexistant. Kinda like the Borg: you still see them having various cranial ridges and such, but they aren't a Klingon, a Cardassian, a Bolian or a Terran, they all melted together, thinking the same, saying the same - they are just Borg now.

Ok, what? How is stopping him from saying what he is saying doing any of this?

Could somebody please tell me exactly what page exchange is on because I doubt that Vale was actually trying to do any of this stuff.

 

[Geoff Thorne]

LightningStorm said:
c: a category of humankind that shares certain distinctive physical traits
4obsolete : inherited temperament or disposition5: distinctive flavor, taste, or strength

Race is a social construct not a biological distinction. It has almost no basis in science and what there is doesn't add up to what we see, visually, as race.

We don't speak of dog "races" or bird "races" but of genus and phenotypes. Only with humans do we invoke race and it is SOLELY as a means of division, exclusion and subjugation.

The man who invented the concept (and the classifications currently in use) later rejected it outright as being an incorrect conclusion drawn from an incomplete set of facts.

Much the same way bigotry works, actually.

One race: human.

 

[BrotherBenny]

LightningStorm said:

Xeris-mas said:
... the term "racism" [...] is a misnomer. All people on this planet are part of the human race, and since there are no aliens around, how can someone be racist?

Human is our species. Native American/Caucasian/African American etc is our "ethnic group."

I dislike the term ethnic group because it further categorises humanity. We are human and that is where it should end. But since we need ways to distinguish borders, I guess that will have to do.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

RedJack said:

One race: human.

Yes! Humans and all their wonderful ethnic cultures, individuals and identities that are still one race and all the better for their differences and similarites.

 

[BrotherBenny]

middyseafort said:

RedJack said:

One race: human.

Yes! Humans and all their wonderful ethnic cultures, individuals and identities that are still one race and all the better for their differences and similarites.

Done and done!

 

[wizkid]

BrentMc said:
I have read the first three, and will probably pick up the third soon. I was wondering: am I the only one who thinks that the diversity on TITAN is annoying and that it gets in the way of the action? I understand ST is about getting along, but I want to read stories about adventures and not how strange species need special suits to live on TITAN, or special quarters...For the most part I like the series, but maybe they can make it less sappy....

I totally agree with you and I am almost finished with the second book. I will say the writing is a little slow. The descriptions and diversity being shoved down your throat at every turn makes less Trek than the reader already understanding that the Federation is diverse. The writing could be better up to where I am at right now.

Plus, it is hard to believe that a spider like, ostrich like, bovine like, etc. are in Trek when we really haven't seen the weird and wacky in how many movies and how many TV shows? Star Wars seems to cover the weird and wacky better.

 

[JD]

Yeah, but if you wanted to go by what we've seen on screen there would probably only be a couple dozen different species in the UFP. When we know for a fact that there there are over 150 member worlds, although I guess some of them might be colonies from the different worlds.

As for not seeing them there is a simple enough explanation, CGI is expensive and up to about VRG or ENT, there was almost no way they could afford to do the kinds of aliens we got in the Titan.
In fact, one of the main reasons I love the books so much is the fact that they have no budget, so they are able to do really wierd aliens (like Torvig, you're ostrich-like example, and Chaka, your spider-like example), or my two favorites Ree and Huilan.

 

[Geoff Thorne]

Huilan RULES!

 

[DS9Continuing]

He does, actually. He's a sweetheart. Just don't call him cute.

 

[Huntingdon]

He is certainly an interesting character.

Having read Sword of Damocles - we really do need that cast list suggested earlier. It would make for a much smoother read. I am finding it easier to identify them now, but it still causes problems in places.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Huntingdon said:
we really do need that cast list suggested earlier. It would make for a much smoother read. I am finding it easier to identify them now, but it still causes problems in places.

Why not print out the latest update of this page from Memory Beta before sitting down to read each volume? Use the print-out as a bookmark.

 

[Huntingdon]

Doesn't really give much more than the text will - I was hoping for something more on the lines of the Guide included with Vanguard. Given the crew number it would probably have to be done accross several books, but would be much more effective than a simple list.

 

[JD]

Then just bookmark the page, and look page at the individual entries listed whenever you need to.

Oh, and I don't mean to brag, but you guys can thank me for adding all of the new characters from Sword of Damocles to the list. It was actually one of the first things I did as soon as I started the book.

 

[Skywalker]

Therin of Andor said:

Huntingdon said:
we really do need that cast list suggested earlier. It would make for a much smoother read. I am finding it easier to identify them now, but it still causes problems in places.

Why not print out the latest update of this page from Memory Beta before sitting down to read each volume? Use the print-out as a bookmark.

Why can't the publishers just put a dramatis personae at the front of the book instead of making things more complicated for their readers? I doubt everyone who reads Trek books know about Memory Beta.

 

[Geoff Thorne]

I think they leave it up to the individual authors. For myself, I never read the dramatis personae in books. I just read the books. It never occurred to me that TITAN's diversity would be an issue on any front. Weird.

 

[KRAD]

Why can't the publishers just put a dramatis personae at the front of the book instead of making things more complicated for their readers?

I don't see how not including a dramatis personae constitutes complicating things for readers. And including such a thing can sometimes give away plot points, since generally characters are introduced at a particular point in the story for a reason, and listing all the characters ahead of time has the potential to cut off plot points at the knees.