TITAN too diverse?
- Thread starter BrentMc
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don't bet on it. I think EVERYONE we've ever seen on the show is a Cylon.
This has all happened before and it will all happen again? It's a simulation of some kind. all of it. That's my guess.
This has all happened before and it will all happen again? It's a simulation of some kind. all of it. That's my guess.
I just figured they were referring to the '78 series, and the inevitable remake 30 years from now.
Well, there's a lot more to science fiction, modern or otherwise, than TV shows. TV/film SF mostly just borrows bits and pieces from what prose SF was doing 10-30 years earlier. And since it's aimed at a broader, less specialized audience, it tends to be more conservative in its approach than prose SF, less prone to embrace the exotic and extreme.
To me, Titan is an attempt to do Star Trek fiction that has the scope and originality of the best prose-SF space opera, rather than simply being an emulation of a television series. I basically wrote Orion's Hounds (and much of the rest of my Trek fiction) using pretty much the same creative muscles I'd apply if I'd been writing an original novel. The literary SF community tends to look down on tie-in fiction, seeing it as interchangeable hackwork; but I've always felt there's no reason why tie-in SF can't be written at the same level as original SF, and I daresay Marco feels the same way and has applied that as a guiding principle behind the various book series he's developed.
And I'm sorry, but Star Wars doesn't come close to the level of worldbuilding you'd get in the works of Poul Anderson or David Brin or Vernor Vinge or other great alien-builders. Star Wars is just a bunch of sword-and-sorcery and WWII-movie tropes dressed up in Flash Gordon trappings, although Lucas did fold in a certain amount of political and historical musings into the prequel trilogy. The aliens may look and sound wildly diverse thanks to the production designers and the FX and audio teams, but that's not the same as actually creating well-drawn alien cultures, biologies, and psychologies and exploring their ramifications. It's got the style, but not the substance. Farscape brought a lot more depth to its alien creation, even if its approach was just as fanciful as SW's.
Dayton Ward said:
I just figured they were referring to the '78 series, and the inevitable remake 30 years from now.
No, they were refering to Glactica 1980.
Aaron McGuire
Christopher...I should have said filmed science fiction. I agree...much of filmed science fiction doesn't approach the concepts and themes nor the scope of literary SF. When we see a true adaptation of something like Rendezvous With Rama or The Uplift books. I haven't seen the new film Sunshine, but I think the closest we've come in terms of thematic complexity is BSG (by the way...I do not distinguish between original and remake. To me...Ron Moore's vision is the true expression of the ideas of a studio hack). Also...it should be noted probably the closest we've come on the big screen is Blade Runner.
Back to the point, however, I do agree that Titan does seem an expansion beyond the usual "tie-in" boundaries (I think it's fair to say most of the titles Marco has edited do that in one way or another). That also seems to be your goal with Ex Machina (I'm around 120 pages into it so far...it's my work reading book, so it goes slower than the one I read at home). I do not find it an invalid approach.
I do think I might have slightly got your gander up at my Star Wars comparison...I just use it to illustrate a point. I have a feeling more people who read this posting with be familiar with Lucas than Brin or Vinge or Niven (or my personal favorites - Philip K Dick and Robert Heinlein).
You do have to admit though...right or wrong, it does go very much against the grain of Star Trek as we're used to it. I'm not saying it's a wrong approach...in fact, I am very much enjoying your more literary approach with Ex Machina, but I will admit David Mack, Dayton Ward, and David George grab me a little more quickly than this approach. I do plan, at some point, to revisit it by reading Orion's Hounds...Ex Machina has interested me enough to do that at least.
Back to the point, however, I do agree that Titan does seem an expansion beyond the usual "tie-in" boundaries (I think it's fair to say most of the titles Marco has edited do that in one way or another). That also seems to be your goal with Ex Machina (I'm around 120 pages into it so far...it's my work reading book, so it goes slower than the one I read at home). I do not find it an invalid approach.
I do think I might have slightly got your gander up at my Star Wars comparison...I just use it to illustrate a point. I have a feeling more people who read this posting with be familiar with Lucas than Brin or Vinge or Niven (or my personal favorites - Philip K Dick and Robert Heinlein).
You do have to admit though...right or wrong, it does go very much against the grain of Star Trek as we're used to it. I'm not saying it's a wrong approach...in fact, I am very much enjoying your more literary approach with Ex Machina, but I will admit David Mack, Dayton Ward, and David George grab me a little more quickly than this approach. I do plan, at some point, to revisit it by reading Orion's Hounds...Ex Machina has interested me enough to do that at least.
I just think it's a matter of flavors. The Star Wars universe is, essentially, a backdrop for the story of a dynastic family and all the branches come off that single tree.
From its inception the Star Trek universe was meant to be interpreted as a slice of an incredibly larger pie. Enterprise is one of MANY such vessels all out there exploring the black.
In order to keep any franchise fresh experimentation is required. That means "new blood" and it means bold editorial choices. It also means giving the fans what they want. It means all that.
What I liked about the TITAN experience from this side of the keyboard was, despite it being deeply immersed in the larger Trek mythos, TITAN was also so much its own thing that I didn't feel all those ghosts breathing down my neck. I don't know about the other guys but I feel the weight of fan expectation because I am still, very much, one of the fans.
I presume KRAD felt the same with his various off-the-main titles. I'm sure the Vanguard guys do too.
With TITAN not only was I free to explore unusual aspects of characters I knew well (or thought I did) but the three preceding books provided me with a wide spectrum of tonal approaches that could be used without disrupting the established flow. All I had to really worry about was dropping the ball (which was PLENTY).
I think Marco has a very subtle and interesting eye when it comes to this (I haven't worked with Margaret or Ed yet but I'm assuming the same for them), I was TOTALLY burnt out on Star Trek before I discovered SNW and NF.
Both of them opened a window onto not only what I had loved about Trek before (and which had been burned away) but what I had always hoped it could be.
TITAN, for me, as one of the new kids, is very much in keeping with what I think Mr. Rodenberry's vision was. We're supposed to push buttons and boundaries. We're supposed to be challenging. "We" meaning the writers and the editors.
As a reader I never made a distinction between "original" fiction and media tie-in. Now that I'm lucky enough to write it, I still don't. Good fiction is good fiction and there are stacks of valid approaches. Can we honestly think of a time when there was MORE diversity in the line? I can't.
I would urge some of the doubters and wobblers to stick with TITAN (presuming it survives the Mack Attack) not only because of what each story is in itself but for what it's trying to say about Star Trek's ethos and its future. And I'd urge some of those who are lurking and nervous about digging in to at least take a taste of TAKING WING. You'll be well served. If you make it as far as SoD, awesome. But at least take a look at book One.
I have honestly never had more fun creatively and it was in no small measure due to the palette the other guys left me to play with.
And we STILL haven't scratched the surface of all that is weird and alien on the ship or out there in the beta quadrant. For my money we're still in the first few eps of the first season of the "show."
From its inception the Star Trek universe was meant to be interpreted as a slice of an incredibly larger pie. Enterprise is one of MANY such vessels all out there exploring the black.
In order to keep any franchise fresh experimentation is required. That means "new blood" and it means bold editorial choices. It also means giving the fans what they want. It means all that.
What I liked about the TITAN experience from this side of the keyboard was, despite it being deeply immersed in the larger Trek mythos, TITAN was also so much its own thing that I didn't feel all those ghosts breathing down my neck. I don't know about the other guys but I feel the weight of fan expectation because I am still, very much, one of the fans.
I presume KRAD felt the same with his various off-the-main titles. I'm sure the Vanguard guys do too.
With TITAN not only was I free to explore unusual aspects of characters I knew well (or thought I did) but the three preceding books provided me with a wide spectrum of tonal approaches that could be used without disrupting the established flow. All I had to really worry about was dropping the ball (which was PLENTY).
I think Marco has a very subtle and interesting eye when it comes to this (I haven't worked with Margaret or Ed yet but I'm assuming the same for them), I was TOTALLY burnt out on Star Trek before I discovered SNW and NF.
Both of them opened a window onto not only what I had loved about Trek before (and which had been burned away) but what I had always hoped it could be.
TITAN, for me, as one of the new kids, is very much in keeping with what I think Mr. Rodenberry's vision was. We're supposed to push buttons and boundaries. We're supposed to be challenging. "We" meaning the writers and the editors.
As a reader I never made a distinction between "original" fiction and media tie-in. Now that I'm lucky enough to write it, I still don't. Good fiction is good fiction and there are stacks of valid approaches. Can we honestly think of a time when there was MORE diversity in the line? I can't.
I would urge some of the doubters and wobblers to stick with TITAN (presuming it survives the Mack Attack) not only because of what each story is in itself but for what it's trying to say about Star Trek's ethos and its future. And I'd urge some of those who are lurking and nervous about digging in to at least take a taste of TAKING WING. You'll be well served. If you make it as far as SoD, awesome. But at least take a look at book One.
I have honestly never had more fun creatively and it was in no small measure due to the palette the other guys left me to play with.
And we STILL haven't scratched the surface of all that is weird and alien on the ship or out there in the beta quadrant. For my money we're still in the first few eps of the first season of the "show."
Every Star Wars book I've read has essentially the same story: some force-strong individual is seduced by the Dark Side, spends some time in Darkness, but ultimately repents and becomes an, I don't know, Jedi of Light. Or whatever. That's The constantly-repeated story of the Star Wars mythos.
The Star Trek story is different: The Federation meets a stranger, who initially regards the Feds with suspicion (if not outright hostility) but is ultimately transformed into a friend and fellow traveler, and adopts some variation of the Federation's altruistic outlook.
Star Wars is the story of fall and redemption. Star Trek is the story of going out into the Great Unknown and turning enemies into friends. Personally, I relate better to Star Trek than Star Wars.
By focusing on the nuts & bolts of transforming discord into friendship, TITAN seems to be one of the purest expressions of the Star Trek story I've ever found.
The Star Trek story is different: The Federation meets a stranger, who initially regards the Feds with suspicion (if not outright hostility) but is ultimately transformed into a friend and fellow traveler, and adopts some variation of the Federation's altruistic outlook.
Star Wars is the story of fall and redemption. Star Trek is the story of going out into the Great Unknown and turning enemies into friends. Personally, I relate better to Star Trek than Star Wars.
By focusing on the nuts & bolts of transforming discord into friendship, TITAN seems to be one of the purest expressions of the Star Trek story I've ever found.
you seriously need to read more Star Wars novels. starting with the Thrawn trilogy (heir to the empire, dark force rising and the last command), the X-Wing series, the Republic Commando series and Spectre of the Past/Vision of the Future
I tried reading Star Wars long ago. I did the novelizations of the movies, and they were fine. Then I read Splinter of the Mind's Eye. It was easily the worst book I've ever read, and it soured me for anything Star Wars. I haven't been able to pick up a SW book since. I seriously think the author owes the world an apology for unleashing such a mound of crap.
I didn't actually mind Splinter of the Mind's Eye, but I was 15 at the time. Heir to the Empire, on the other hand... I was 28, it bored me, and I've read very few Star Wars books since. Considering how bad most of the Star Wars movies are, I'm okay with that.
I've never been able to get into SW. I feel the characterisations are generally atrocious at best, the plots are thin to non-existent and richness of the universe is poor.
In other words, the total opposite of ST.
They do say that SW fans are far more tolerant of nonsense, they put up with their prequels.
Back to topic: Titan's diversity is what ST is all about. The crew follow their motto completely. ST has always been about IDIC and that's what is portrayed. As others have said, IDIC is easier on paper than in practice, but so far so good. None of them have killed each other yet.
NB: Do not give David Mack a Titan novel. Destiny excepted.
In other words, the total opposite of ST.
They do say that SW fans are far more tolerant of nonsense, they put up with their prequels.
Back to topic: Titan's diversity is what ST is all about. The crew follow their motto completely. ST has always been about IDIC and that's what is portrayed. As others have said, IDIC is easier on paper than in practice, but so far so good. None of them have killed each other yet.
NB: Do not give David Mack a Titan novel. Destiny excepted.
I'm with captcalhoun here (not because I love NF either), from the Thrawn up to now there are some great reads. Shadows Of The Empire was fantastic however somewhere around the last film (Revenge of the Sith) I sort of fell behind in the series, something I will fix soon enough. The comics (newer ones set 150 years in the future of the SW universe) are supposed to be okay.
Back on topic, I'm sure Titan will survive in some form from whatever evil plan DM has for our various crews. If there were ever a IDW comic of Titan wonder if it would show Ree eating.
Back on topic, I'm sure Titan will survive in some form from whatever evil plan DM has for our various crews. If there were ever a IDW comic of Titan wonder if it would show Ree eating.
In some form, yes. Maybe. We'll see.
The current approach by those at Pocket in recent years is what brought me back to Trek books. For awhile, I thought TrekLit had become a minefield of generic tales that didn't do much of anything prose-wise, character-wise or genre-wise. One of the things that Trek does well is being a synthesis, or boiling pot, of a variety of sub-genres of science-fiction literature. In Trek, televised, film and lit, you can find military SF, speculative fiction, hard sf, soft sf and space opera. It is one of the few media forms that combines the best of these sub-genres and puts them all together.
I also appreciate that the standard for TrekLit in recent years has been to strive for something that can stand toe-to-toe with "serious" science-fiction literature. And while I don't read much SF anymore, I will pick up the occasional Trek novel, especially the Titan series, Vanguard series, and any book by Christopher L. Bennett and David George III. I am also fond of the writings of David Mack and the duo of Mangles and Martin. I look forward to the day when these folks publish a book outside of the Trek universe and dealing with one that they have created because they are so adapt at making this little television/film series feel like a real, substantial well-thought out world in their books.
As for the Titan series, I enjoy that the crew is diverse and from a variety of other species. Like Ex Machina, the Titan books shows conflict that doesn't steam from personal dislikes, petty bickerness or jealously (the Soap Opera-style conflicts) but from cultural and societal differences in worldview and how to approach situations and problem solving. This is also the type of conflict, iirc, that we might have gotten in Phase: II, at least per some of the preproduction material written by Jon Povill. This is the type of conflict that I longed for on TNG but it seems the writers/producers took too serious the Roddenberry rule of "no conflict." In fact, this type of conflicting viewpoints is often the type of conflict you would find in contemporary literature.
Kudos to those who have spearheaded the Titan 'verse.
Well, then, I'm happy to let you know that, as soon as I finish the Star Trek Destiny trilogy, I'll be sitting down to finish writing my first original modern-fantasy novel, The Calling, which I'm developing with editor Marco Palmieri for Simon & Schuster. It's tentatively scheduled for publication in 2009.
Whaaaaaa!?
Cool.
Cool.
so, omaha, you're going to judge over 100 novels by a dozen plus authors on the basis of a book written in 1977 or so as a 'sequel' to ANH?
seroiusly, man, that's just mental. you may as well judge Trek novels on the basis of a marshak/Culbreath novel...
seroiusly, man, that's just mental. you may as well judge Trek novels on the basis of a marshak/Culbreath novel...
Awesome cool! Look forward to it.
Also, I misspelled Mangels in my previous post -- my bad!
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