Spoilers Timeless Season 2 - SPOILERS

[Christopher]

They're really fond of killing historical figures lately -- that music guy last week, the famous suffragette this week. Their history keeps getting further and further away from ours. As Jayson said earlier, it's kind of hard to believe that the ripple effects of those changes haven't rendered Lucy's historical knowledge irrelevant by now.

I bet by season's end, Emma turns on WWI Rittenhouse boss guy because of his sexist treatment of her. Although we've already got one bad guy on the team, so Emma might end up dying rather than permanently switching sides. Or maybe she leads a new faction of Rittblah with a less white male supremacist agenda. (I'm so tired of typing that name.)

 

[LJones41]

They're really fond of killing historical figures lately -- that music guy last week, the famous suffragette this week. Their history keeps getting further and further away from ours. As Jayson said earlier, it's kind of hard to believe that the ripple effects of those changes haven't rendered Lucy's historical knowledge irrelevant by now.

I bet by season's end, Emma turns on WWI Rittenhouse boss guy because of his sexist treatment of her. Although we've already got one bad guy on the team, so Emma might end up dying rather than permanently switching sides. Or maybe she leads a new faction of Rittblah with a less white male supremacist agenda. (I'm so tired of typing that name.)

The "white male supremacist" has people of color working for Rittenhouse. I'm not just talking about Betty, who nearly killed Robert Johnson in the previous episode, but also some guns, whom Wyatt had encountered when he accessed their headquarters. Remembering the biracial woman whom they had encountered in the early 70s and who wanted to run from her Rittenhouse legacy, I wonder when the organization began recruiting non whites.

As for the revelation about Jessica Logan . . . I knew it, I knew it, I knew it. I knew that the showrunners were going to fuck this up and villainize her in order to give Wyatt and Lucy an easy opening again. Fuck! They had to resort to this ridiculous cliche. Congratulations, "TIMELESS". You just jumped the shark.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Their history keeps getting further and further away from ours. As Jayson said earlier, it's kind of hard to believe that the ripple effects of those changes haven't rendered Lucy's historical knowledge irrelevant by now.

The butterfly effect tends to get overstated in popular culture, and besides, Lucy's gang tends to act as a boundary on whatever effect Rittenhouse's middlings have on history. It's not as if they are making random changes.

 

[Christopher]

The butterfly effect tends to get overstated in popular culture, and besides, Lucy's gang tends to act as a boundary on whatever effect Rittenhouse's middlings have on history. It's not as if they are making random changes.

Except that in the pilot episode of this very show, a change to the history of the Hindenburg disaster erased Lucy's sister from existence. The whole central character arc of the series is directly predicated on the notion that a change to one historical event can have far-ranging and unpredictable ripple effects on seemingly unconnected events. So it's contradictory to turn around and say that the effects of a massive change to history are confined exclusively to those things obviously related to it. It's just part of the generally sloppy and thoughtless worldbuilding that's characterized this show since the first episode. The only time-travel show that makes less effort to make any sense is Legends of Tomorrow, and at least Legends admits that it's ridiculous.

 

[Romulan_spy]

As for the revelation about Jessica Logan . . . I knew it, I knew it, I knew it. I knew that the showrunners were going to fuck this up and villainize her in order to give Wyatt and Lucy an easy opening again. Fuck! They had to resort to this ridiculous cliche. Congratulations, "TIMELESS". You just jumped the shark.

So is Jessica Rittenhouse? The scene implies it but I don't know if it is 100% confirmed yet. But if true, I wonder if Wyatt will have to go back in time and kill her? Talk about a paradox.

I do wonder if this episode is setting up a redemption arc for Emma. I know she says it is just a one time truce but if Emma objects to one aspect of Rittenhouse's agenda maybe there will be other aspects of their agenda that she will also object to?

By the way, Lucy sure looks good in next week's promo where they travel to the 80's.

 

[Nerys Myk]

By the way, Lucy sure looks good in next week's promo where they travel to the 80's.

Those glasses!!!!

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Except that in the pilot episode of this very show, a change to the history of the Hindenburg disaster erased Lucy's sister from existence. The whole central character arc of the series is directly predicated on the notion that a change to one historical event can have far-ranging and unpredictable ripple effects on seemingly unconnected events. So it's contradictory to turn around and say that the effects of a massive change to history are confined exclusively to those things obviously related to it. It's just part of the generally sloppy and thoughtless worldbuilding that's characterized this show since the first episode. The only time-travel show that makes less effort to make any sense is Legends of Tomorrow, and at least Legends admits that it's ridiculous.

One major change, at the time when our "heroes" were unaware of all the players, when they were indeed unaware of Rittenhouse, when they were less careful with gauging how to work against Rittenhouse and did not benefit from Garcia's actions--there is every reason to believe that they would get better at their jobs, and that changes would be control and minimized, if not undone.

ETA: Furthermore, Lucy and her sister were not randomly associated with the Hindenburg disaster as long as Rittenhouse was a thread that ran through their lives and connected them to the historical changes.

 

[Christopher]

So is Jessica Rittenhouse? The scene implies it but I don't know if it is 100% confirmed yet.

I don't see why they'd need a photo of her in their files if she's one of their agents. I mean, it's not like it's an ID photo, more like a surveillance photo. Which makes me suspect that either they're using her in some way without her knowledge, or this "Jessica" is an impostor working for Rittenhouse and they used the photo and other surveillance to surgically alter and train her.

ETA: Furthermore, Lucy and her sister were not randomly associated with the Hindenburg disaster as long as Rittenhouse was a thread that ran through their lives and connected them to the historical changes.

Exactly the point. What seems like "randomness" is usually the result of incomplete information, of not knowing the threads that connect two things. We can never have complete knowledge of the world, so it's impossible to predict how a change to history can affect things that appear unconnected. Hell, that was the whole point of the Robert Johnson episode. Most of the characters couldn't see how rock and roll's existence was connected to anything truly important. Only Mason knew enough to explain how it tied into civil rights and social reform. (Same dynamic as Nate Heywood explaining the same thing to the Legends a few weeks earlier.) Just because you aren't aware of a connection, just because it isn't obvious, that doesn't mean none exists.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

We can never have complete knowledge of the world, so it's impossible to predict how a change to history can affect things that appear unconnected. Hell, that was the whole point of the Robert Johnson episode.

That's not the same thing as utter chaos. Context in many cases of social and political movements will have their own momentum. And yes, they could not predict what would have happened without Robert Johnson, but it does not follow that wild changes must occur.

 

[Mr Awe]

As for the revelation about Jessica Logan . . . I knew it, I knew it, I knew it. I knew that the showrunners were going to fuck this up and villainize her in order to give Wyatt and Lucy an easy opening again. Fuck! They had to resort to this ridiculous cliche. Congratulations, "TIMELESS". You just jumped the shark.

I don't think the photo provides much new information. We already knew that Rittenhouse saved Jessica for some reason. We're guessing it's to disrupt the time team. If she was Rittenhouse, would she have been talking about leaving Wyatt? She had to be convinced to stay. That could have been an act, but I think that's doubtful.

I think the photo just serves to remind us that there is some mystery surrounding Jessica. But, it's probably not as simple as her being Rittenhouse. At least not Rittenhouse 2018. They would not be able to travel to the time of her murder to save her given the rules of the show. A future Rittenhouse (or other time meddlers) would be able to do that.

The butterfly effect tends to get overstated in popular culture, and besides, Lucy's gang tends to act as a boundary on whatever effect Rittenhouse's middlings have on history. It's not as if they are making random changes.

Logically, the effects of changes would multiply over time. You make one change. That causes other events, which causes more changes. Those spread out and so on. It makes no difference whether they're random changes or planned changes.

 

[Christopher]

That's not the same thing as utter chaos.

When did I say anything about "utter chaos"? What I'm saying is that the more these drastic changes accumulate, the more unpredictable ripple effects they're going to have on other events, so that Lucy's knowledge of history should be getting progressively more imperfect.

This very dynamic is a plot point in the Canadian time-travel drama Travelers. The characters came back from a dystopian future to alter history and prevent it, and one team member is a historian who uses his detailed knowledge of history to make money for the team by gambling on sporting events and the like, as well as informing them about where and when certain key events will take place so they'll be prepared for them. But as their efforts have started to alter the course of history, they've had ripple effects and his predictions have been getting less and less accurate. Even things that seem to have no obvious connection to the changes, like racing outcomes. There are countless unpredictable ripple effects spinning out from even small changes in people's interactions, movements, etc.

 

[Greg Cox]

Amazed to see Grace Humiston show up. I was just reading a non-fiction book about her, Mrs. Sherlock Holmes. And, yes, the real Grace was relatively apolitical and kept her distance from the suffragette movement in order to pursue her own causes: namely, crimes against women, "white slavery," unsolved murders, etc.

 

[Christopher]

Amazed to see Grace Humiston show up. I was just reading a non-fiction book about her, Mrs. Sherlock Holmes.

Since that book only came out last year, it doesn't surprise me that both you and the Timeless producers became aware of it so close together. Much the same reason both Timeless and Legends of Tomorrow did Hedy Lamarr episodes in proximity, because there was a documentary film about her not long ago.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

This very dynamic is a plot point in the Canadian time-travel drama Travelers. The characters came back from a dystopian future to alter history and prevent it, and one team member is a historian who uses his detailed knowledge of history to make money for the team by gambling on sporting events and the like, as well as informing them about where and when certain key events will take place so they'll be prepared for them. But as their efforts have started to alter the course of history, they've had ripple effects and his predictions have been getting less and less accurate. Even things that seem to have no obvious connection to the changes, like racing outcomes. There are countless unpredictable ripple effects spinning out from even small changes in people's interactions, movements, etc.

Yes, I am familiar with this over the top application of the butterfly effect. I don't see why it needs to apply. Social and political movements can have their own momentum, as point that has been made in several episodes, and can survive in some form after their public figures disappear. Moreover, the series also makes the point that small details don't always lead to big changes, as in the JFK assassination, just alterations.

 

[Christopher]

Yes, I am familiar with this over the top application of the butterfly effect.

Will you please lay off the insulting straw men? Where the hell are you getting "over the top" or "utter chaos?" I'm talking about progressive, incremental change over time. The longer this goes on, the more often the writers have major historical figures die and get replaced, the more inaccurate Lucy's memory of history should become.

Moreover, the series also makes the point that small details don't always lead to big changes, as in the JFK assassination, just alterations.

Yes, but even changes in detail could still throw off Lucy's recollections. If an event still happens, but happens on a different date or in another city or is done by a different person, then Lucy's knowledge of the facts and figures from her version of history would lead the team astray. That's not "over the top," it's just thinking things through. Which is something the writers of this show have never bothered to do.

 

[LJones41]

I don't see why they'd need a photo of her in their files if she's one of their agents. I mean, it's not like it's an ID photo, more like a surveillance photo. Which makes me suspect that either they're using her in some way without her knowledge, or this "Jessica" is an impostor working for Rittenhouse and they used the photo and other surveillance to surgically alter and train her.

Why bother if they have a time machine? If . . . if Jessica isn't Rittenhouse, chances are they may have been responsible for her death.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Surely whenever Lucy is in present day whenever the past is changed by either team, her brain will be updated with all the other previous changes made to history if historical revision is like a physical effect rambling up the timeline touching everything thing and every one.

 

[FreezeC77]

Surely whenever Lucy is in present day whenever the past is changed by either team, her brain will be updated with all the other previous changes made to history if historical revision is like a physical effect rambling up the timeline touching everything thing and every one.

Doesn't seem to work that way. Those outside the timeline when a change happens remain their original selves with no memory of the new timeline. When JFK died in Austin, Lucy was in the present so she was the original Lucy without memories of dozens of new timelines, but who now always thought JFK died in Austin.

Memories don't get rewritten/updated as they live in a new timeline. Lucy never suddenly got memories of her fiancee and their life together for instance.

 

[RJDiogenes]

So here we have another influential historical figure whose role in history is replaced by somebody else, with nary an effect on the present despite a hundred years of butterfly ripples. Maybe it's all building up to a major change in the season finale and the team will come home to a world of lizard people or something. Or maybe there's a third group of time travelers who skip around tweaking things. Or maybe it's just Sam Beckett.

Rufus must watch SHIELD. Now he's like YoYo and Simmons, acting like he's invulnerable. That's asking for trouble.

And Lucy and Flynn just spent the night talking. Cop out! That could have been an interesting development, but noooo.....

 

[Jayson1]

I wonder if when the series ends they end of erasing all the changes they have made resetting the timeline to how we know it. Which means a world were time travel was never invented. Rittenhouse was never a thing. Then leave out a nugget that all those changes did happen but now they are in their own separate universes. The heros find themselves having lived a different past two years and they "meet for the first time" from that timeline's point of view but since they have their memories they become friends.

Jason