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Threshold episode kinda actually works

Deks

Vice Admiral
Admiral
I know that people generally hate Threshold episode, and it was kicked out of canon, but it is not as 'non-sensical' as some people claim.

Using the theory that Warp 10 allows you to occupy every point in the universe... the reason behind Tom Paris's 'evolution' (well, more accurately, 'mutation') could easily be explained via epigenetics (certain genes becoming switched on or off due to environmental influence) and picking up variety of catalysts in the universe that Starfleet never conceived of (against which they might not have invented shields for - which leaves SF vessels travelling at Warp 10 vulnerable to just about anything that SF doesn't know about, or didn't extrapolate of - which I would gather is QUITE a lot - even if they used AI to extrapolate a variety of advances and theories based on the enormous Federation database, the universe is still ridiculously big with properties that their existing knowledge might not be able to extrapolate theories for) that could have easily resulted in his DNA mutations.

We've seen subspace and other spatial phenomena go through shields and affect the crews of SF ships adversely before.
What's so problematic about it happening here and affecting Paris who occupied every single point in the universe with untold number of spatial phenomena (organized in configurations that SF never encountered, or couldn't account for at this time)?
The Milky Way galaxy is a host to a number of phenomena (subspace and otherwise) that affect SF ships and crews... granted, you'd think after TNG and 100 years since TOS, SF would have AI with its transluminal computers extrapolate billions of permutations on various phenomena in the universe with untold properties, and develop shields that would be ridiculously protective, but as I said, the universe is quite big, and they might still account for a relative fraction of things - the shields could theoretically adapt themselves under the circumstances, but occupying every anomaly and point in the entire universe might be simply too big - though you could probably fix that by phasing the ship slightly out in sync with the rest of the universe - enough to be unaffected by various phenomena, but enough to achieve and travel safely through Warp 10 - but that would be a hypothetical scenario for another time).

Even in TNG, we had an example of Crusher using CRISPR like technique on Barclay to activate a dormant gene with a synthetic T-cell, which then caused a chain reaction in his genome, turned into a virus, spread through the ship and de-evolved the crew.

As for 'infinite velocity' and not having enough energy 'problem'... the Bussard collectors as far as I know serve a function to collect interstellar matter (or energy in various forms) as the ship travels through space (sublight or Warp) which it then turns into energy that powers it.
It might be possible that the shuttle got a radical boost of energy from the deep layers of subspace it penetrated as it approached the TW threshold (and finally crossed it) - more dense type of matter, or exotic type of subspace radiation, particles or something else that the Bussard Collectors might have picked up, and upon converting it into usable energy, the conversion ratio was radically high (high enough to continually sustain Warp 10 - essentially the layer of subspace that allows a ship to travel at 'infinite velocity' becomes the ships power source - or at least just enough to sustain it).

Kicking the episode out of canon wasn't necessary. The crew could have simply said that they would need time to properly analyze the data from the TW flight so they can develop sufficient shielding and technologies for navigation (navigation would likely be equally challenging) that would allow for 'safe instantaneous zipping across the universe'.
In the meantime, treat and cure Paris, and that's it - I doubt giving the entire crew antiproton burst treatment would be very practical - but the EMH could have instead used CRISPR like technique to reverse Paris mutations... or use Paris' previous transporter signature pattern to restore his human DNA and stop the transformation.

Then use whatever limited knowledge you gathered on the TW conduit that 7 of 9 wanted to open up when she was initially bored - instead of Paris saying 'I never navigated TW before' - although, he was technically right about that... he didn't successfully navigate in TW.

Heck, they could have potentially used it to develop a more advanced communication system down the line themselves (as opposed for SF developing the MIDAS array) that would send a message to the Federation instantly.
 
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Evolution is adaptation to the environment, yes? I'd imagine being inside a shuttle going at infinity speed and having it all happen in a day would cause somewhat different evolution to anything humanity would experience over millennia "normally".

Otherwise, it's just a very silly but fun episode. He throws up his tongue! He looks like Deadpool but worse! He has babies with the captain!

Still waiting for Michael Burnham and her crewmates to turn into infinity transwarp salamanders.
 
Even Brannon Braga called Threshold "a terrible episode" and "a royal, steaming stinker"--and he wrote the screenplay.
:shifty:

It's not one of Trek's proudest moments...
 
Evolution is adaptation to the environment, yes? I'd imagine being inside a shuttle going at infinity speed and having it all happen in a day would cause somewhat different evolution to anything humanity would experience over millennia "normally".

Except that you are forgetting that Paris was occupying every single point in the entire universe... and, obviously, he wasn't completely insulated inside the shuttle from the external environment/stimuli such as subspace radiation, exotic particles, different spatial configurations (permutations ranging in the billions or trillions) that exist in areas of the universe SF hadn't reached or hypothesized of yet (the amount of strange phenomena that might exist in the Milky Way galaxy alone are ridiculously high, SF only explored a proverbial fraction of them - and you need to try and extrapolate those and a ton of other options, then spread them through the universe in endless configurations) - any of which could have acted as epigenetic triggers which would then prompt his genome to adapt to a variety of things in the whole universe.
Paris was exposed to an environment of an entire universe all at the same time, for an extended period of time containing properties that together could have affected him in a number of ways. Think about that for a minute.

Within the confines of Trek universe (and certain dose of reality), his mutation is not at all out of the ordinary.
Why a salamander type lifeform?
Why not?
There are various different ways his genome could have mutated to mind boggling proportions that encompass the whole universe.
We saw but one possible mutation. He used a SF shuttle with a specific configuration to occupy every single point in the universe simultaneously for an extended period of time.
General conditions would have remained unaltered in the shuttle (along with the shuttle itself) when he took Janeway for the joyride too.
Though the universe is hardly static, I doubt much (if anything) would have changed to have affected Janeway differently (and for all we know, she might have been - not enough to mutate into something else, but perhaps she didn't change in the same enough manner as Paris had - after all, we never saw her mutation happening).

Look at how rapidly human genome changes in accordance to the environment here on Earth (our genetic structure is affected on a daily basis - one small change and you can trigger an inflammation that would manifest itself within hours)... now look at the astronauts in space and how rapidly they change.
You think in Trek for humans that travel through space and usually simulate Earth like conditions inside the ship would be completely 'static' when it comes to genetic mutations?
I very much doubt that.
They have a host of other species on board... and all of them would have bacteria intermingling with each other, mutating, affecting the crew in ever subtle ways.

When you think about the 'environment'... in this particular situation, it needs to encompass a much larger playground (the universe itself). With the Milky Way having all kinds of strange phenomena already in Trek... the universe at large would have them in (probably calculable, but at the moment inconceivably) high amounts.
So, when you talk about the environment and how it affects humans... think about that.
 
I just think about the poor babies they left behind :lol:
Awkward morning after talk between Janeway and Paris. Tom takes like a true champ being let down by Janeway! :hugegrin:

It is a confusing episode but it’s not my least favourite of voyager... Chakotay’s Tattoo bottom! As someone said earlier, at least Tom bites his tongue out and the makeup was amazing!
 
The episode creates problems for the show that go beyond Paris’s actual mutation, or how it could happen. The mere presence of the technology should have rendered the rest of the show’s premise moot.

Even if warp 10 could plausibly cause such a mutation, why can’t a shuttle go right up to the edge of warp 10 and get its occupants home in a few hours? If the doctor could treat the mutation and restore him by the end of the episode, why couldn’t they all just get treatment after the trip? Now it could be that Paris was just lucky that his mutation was non-fatal and that there’s only a small chance of even surviving the trip, but still... why not outfit a shuttle with holoprojectors and send a holographic pilot who at least could be used to keep in contact with star fleet and share the warp 10 technology so that they can work on a way to perfect it back home? If it really can occupy any point in space, then what do the sensors record? Can an autopiloted shuttle be used to gather sensor data that will shorten their journey? Maybe they’re only a few months travel away from a wormhole back to the AQ, for all they know....

We have to not only accept that there are salamander mutations at warp 10, but that not one of 150 crew thought of any of this, shrugged their shoulders, and went on their way. That’s really why I think it has to be thought of as non-canon. The mutation thing itself was silly, but not fatal to episode. YMMV.
 
I think there are worse episodes than Threshold, I cerrainly don't hate this episode. I think a lot of problem could have been resolved if they just called what Paris went through a mutation rather than anything having to do with evolution.

Personally I think the overall concept of the episode was interesting.
 
The episode creates problems for the show that go beyond Paris’s actual mutation, or how it could happen. The mere presence of the technology should have rendered the rest of the show’s premise moot.

Even if warp 10 could plausibly cause such a mutation, why can’t a shuttle go right up to the edge of warp 10 and get its occupants home in a few hours? If the doctor could treat the mutation and restore him by the end of the episode, why couldn’t they all just get treatment after the trip? Now it could be that Paris was just lucky that his mutation was non-fatal and that there’s only a small chance of even surviving the trip, but still... why not outfit a shuttle with holoprojectors and send a holographic pilot who at least could be used to keep in contact with star fleet and share the warp 10 technology so that they can work on a way to perfect it back home? If it really can occupy any point in space, then what do the sensors record? Can an autopiloted shuttle be used to gather sensor data that will shorten their journey? Maybe they’re only a few months travel away from a wormhole back to the AQ, for all they know....

We have to not only accept that there are salamander mutations at warp 10, but that not one of 150 crew thought of any of this, shrugged their shoulders, and went on their way. That’s really why I think it has to be thought of as non-canon. The mutation thing itself was silly, but not fatal to episode. YMMV.
Voyager itself can go right up to warp 10. Their top cruising speed is 9.975.
 
I like Threshold. I could have done without Paris hacking his tongue out, though I do love the Cronenberg-like body horror vibe, (and possibly without the salamander sex but it was amusing anyway), but I like the episode fine.
What I really could care less about (and this goes above and beyond VOY) are the minutia of events that "cause problems" elsewhere or that are not in line with so-and-so in some other aspect of the ST universe. I watch the series (all of them) for the same reason I watch horror movies: lighthearted entertainment purposes. It's all space opera anyway, so it doesn't bother me if the "rules" get broken every now and then.
 
Voyager itself can go right up to warp 10. Their top cruising speed is 9.975.
Right, in terms of the absolute “warp factor number”, that’s true, but since it’s supposed to be an exponential scale, 9.999 is much faster than 9.975. It’s one good argument for the scale not to be expressed colloquially in such terms, regardless of any underlying “science”
 
The problem with changing references to "evolution" to be mutation instead is that the episode was supposed to be about evolution.
It all started with Brannon Braga ng that maybe humanity would evolve into a form that is dependent on technology.
Tom Paris isn't evolving, or even mutating, so much as he has become unstuck in time.
There is an episode of DS9 where The Prophets changed Grand Nagus Zek into a more agreeable form by making him as Ferengi were thousands of years ago. Something similar was happening to Tom: he kept turning into a human from the future, and how far in the future kept moving.
Yes, the point of the episode waswas that in millions of years humanity would ld be a bunch of giant salamanders.

A bad idea expressed poorly.
Like others, I found the episode entertaining in itself.
And like others, when trying to integrate it into a consistent universe I find it kinda becomes the ship of Theseus: so much has to be replaced that I'm not sure it is accurate to call the result the same episode.
 
Right, in terms of the absolute “warp factor number”, that’s true, but since it’s supposed to be an exponential scale, 9.999 is much faster than 9.975. It’s one good argument for the scale not to be expressed colloquially in such terms, regardless of any underlying “science”
I'm curious as to what Voyager's absolute top speed is. They've said their top CRUISING speed is 9.975. But what if they pushed it
 
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