Thoughts about TNG episodes you just watched?

[Qonundrum]

"Pen Pals" is a fun one to rewatch for a certain charm, even if some plot logic is a little too far "out there", such as Data leaving the conch after the audience is told with a hammer that the memory wipe might now ork. It's like telling a newly-diagnosed diabetic, "Here's this experimental cure but because of a relapse risk and we're not 100% sure about this new cure anyway, you're not allowed to eat any sweets, so my nurse here will surreptitiously give you this five kilo box of candy on the nightstand you were salivating over earlier and if you eat it we won't know about it." Okey dokey then...

But even better: See, we have this mystery of planets somehow blowing up real fast and all life on them on them frying like scrambled eggs too. Data stumbles upon one communication and promptly breaks the prime directive on so many levels, but given the urgency of the main event what do they do? Bring in completely untrained Wesley to take command of the project managing and that precious power of plot armor ensures he's going to be right. Which is corny, but the same type of "what the heck were they thinking when they scripted that" also occurred in season 1 gems like "Heart of Glory" where they have this super-dee-duper urgent situation but decided that only then was it also the perfect time to peter around exploring Geordi's VISOR's transmitter for a while. (At least for that story, bringing up the urgent nature of ship about to go boom at an unexpected point instead of having the viewer wonder for several minutes "Well, should they really be fiddling with all this right now what with all the radiation and EM clutter that surely indicates a big problem, not to mention everyone on their toes over possible Romulan incursion and so on?!" )

Don't get me wrong, both stories' subplots have great ideas, but wrapping them around big urgent situations... and would all of the adult scientists really be finding excuses to not run the tests based on one anomaly? It's outer space, you probably should run them all because the universe is so big you might find a known condition to not always work everywhere else."

 

[CetiAlphanEel]

Just finished Angel One with my roommate. A very strange 80s television piece that I believe was meant as an allegory toward apartheid South Africa? Very strange given the plot and the conclusion.

 

[Farscape One]

"Pen Pals" is a fun one to rewatch for a certain charm, even if some plot logic is a little too far "out there", such as Data leaving the conch after the audience is told with a hammer that the memory wipe might now ork. It's like telling a newly-diagnosed diabetic, "Here's this experimental cure but because of a relapse risk and we're not 100% sure about this new cure anyway, you're not allowed to eat any sweets, so my nurse here will surreptitiously give you this five kilo box of candy on the nightstand you were salivating over earlier and if you eat it we won't know about it." Okey dokey then...

But even better: See, we have this mystery of planets somehow blowing up real fast and all life on them on them frying like scrambled eggs too. Data stumbles upon one communication and promptly breaks the prime directive on so many levels, but given the urgency of the main event what do they do? Bring in completely untrained Wesley to take command of the project managing and that precious power of plot armor ensures he's going to be right. Which is corny, but the same type of "what the heck were they thinking when they scripted that" also occurred in season 1 gems like "Heart of Glory" where they have this super-dee-duper urgent situation but decided that only then was it also the perfect time to peter around exploring Geordi's VISOR's transmitter for a while. (At least for that story, bringing up the urgent nature of ship about to go boom at an unexpected point instead of having the viewer wonder for several minutes "Well, should they really be fiddling with all this right now what with all the radiation and EM clutter that surely indicates a big problem, not to mention everyone on their toes over possible Romulan incursion and so on?!" )

Don't get me wrong, both stories' subplots have great ideas, but wrapping them around big urgent situations... and would all of the adult scientists really be finding excuses to not run the tests based on one anomaly? It's outer space, you probably should run them all because the universe is so big you might find a known condition to not always work everywhere else."

To be fair, Wesley was given the mineral survey project before Data received Sarjenka's first call, and it had been a couple weeks (in universe time) before Data told Picard about her calls.

One of the best things about "Pen Pals" is actually a VERY subtle thing: Pulaski. In the beginning of the season, she looks at Data as basically a walking calculator. But by the conference in Picard's quarters, she not only acknoeledges him being a person, but is fully on his side of the argument simply on the basis of 'she's important to Data, that's good enough for me'. Great development of her character through the season, and underscores my feeling that she got more development in a single season than Crusher did in six seasons.

 

[CetiAlphanEel]

To be fair, Wesley was given the mineral survey project before Data received Sarjenka's first call, and it had been a couple weeks (in universe time) before Data told Picard about her calls.

One of the best things about "Pen Pals" is actually a VERY subtle thing: Pulaski. In the beginning of the season, she looks at Data as basically a walking calculator. But by the conference in Picard's quarters, she not only acknoeledges him being a person, but is fully on his side of the argument simply on the basis of 'she's important to Data, that's good enough for me'. Great development of her character through the season, and underscores my feeling that she got more development in a single season than Crusher did in six seasons.

A YouTuber I watch says he preferred Pulaski over Crusher for exactly this reason. I'm forced to agree as well, Crusher was a lot more bland

 

[Farscape One]

A YouTuber I watch says he preferred Pulaski over Crusher for exactly this reason. I'm forced to agree as well, Crusher was a lot more bland

Same. Crusher is my least favorite CMO in the franchise, though not for her being more bland than Pulaski. "Ethics" is a microcosm of everything I dislike about her.

 

[CetiAlphanEel]

Same. Crusher is my least favorite CMO in the franchise, though not for her being more bland than Pulaski. "Ethics" is a microcosm of everything I dislike about her.

It's been awhile since I've seen that episode, why does it make you dislike her?

 

[Farscape One]

It's been awhile since I've seen that episode, why does it make you dislike her?

It's not THE episode that makes me dislike her, but it illustrates exactly why I dislike her. (Other episodes show the qualities I don't like, but none as effectively and overtly as "Ethics".)

She pushes her views onto her patients (also does this with others) and thinks she is never wrong. In this case, she is forcing Worf to go with HER idea of treatment instead of presenting all options to her patient. She is also completely dismissive of his cultural view and said in no uncertain terms that she will not allow him to perform his ceremomy. He is the patient, it's his choice. Period.

 

[CetiAlphanEel]

It's not THE episode that makes me dislike her, but it illustrates exactly why I dislike her. (Other episodes show the qualities I don't like, but none as effectively and overtly as "Ethics".)

She pushes her views onto her patients (also does this with others) and thinks she is never wrong. In this case, she is forcing Worf to go with HER idea of treatment instead of presenting all options to her patient. She is also completely dismissive of his cultural view and said in no uncertain terms that she will not allow him to perform his ceremomy. He is the patient, it's his choice. Period.

Is that the episode where he wants to commit suicide? Is that what she's preventing? I remember Picard being oddly okay with an officer of his being suicidal, that always weirded me out

 

[Farscape One]

Is that the episode where he wants to commit suicide? Is that what she's preventing? I remember Picard being oddly okay with an officer of his being suicidal, that always weirded me out

Yes, that is the episode.

The problem is she was forcing an option on Worf (getting barely 60-70% of his mobility back) instead of presenting all options on the table, which included Russell's experimental one. It's her job to give her patients all available options and the risks and let THEM decide, not pick and choose for them.

As far as the suicide option... it IS Worf's life. That is entirely his option and his alone to decide. If he feels he cannot live with a disability, Crusher has no right to force him to live with it.

 

[CetiAlphanEel]

Yes, that is the episode.

The problem is she was forcing an option on Worf (getting barely 60-70% of his mobility back) instead of presenting all options on the table, which included Russell's experimental one. It's her job to give her patients all available options and the risks and let THEM decide, not pick and choose for them.

As far as the suicide option... it IS Worf's life. That is entirely his option and his alone to decide. If he feels he cannot live with a disability, Crusher has no right to force him to live with it.

Well we don't allow suicide today unless you're terminally ill which he wasn't in that episode. So I side with Crusher in that instance

 

[AntonyF]

Well we don't allow suicide today unless you're terminally ill

I don't believe that's true. I'm going to assume you mean assisted suicide, and there are countries that extend the right to rise with severe disabilities as long as they are making a decision freely. Switzerland is one, off the bat.

 

[Farscape One]

Well we don't allow suicide today unless you're terminally ill which he wasn't in that episode. So I side with Crusher in that instance

Slavery was allowed in the U.S. long ago. Doesn't mean it was right.

Same with not allowing suicide as an option outside of terminal illness. Just because it's not allowed now doesn't mean that's right. Nobody has the right to force a person to live with a disability if they do not feel that is something they can live with. Should a doctor try to convince the patient otherwise? Sure, absolutely. But to not even consider what he was going through, including his beliefs and values, and make that decision FOR him? Absolutely not! It's as simple as this: a person's life is THEIR life. THEIR decision. And if they decide it should end due to a disability or illness that they feel they are not capable living with, then it is THEIR decision on whether it should end or not.

 

[CetiAlphanEel]

I don't believe that's true. I'm going to assume you mean assisted suicide, and there are countries that extend the right to rise with severe disabilities as long as they are making a decision freely. Switzerland is one, off the bat.

I meant US jurisdictions but yeah, in Canada they actually do allow what you mention and their health care system controversially pushes it at times on disabled people as to save money. Which I think people will agree is dystopian and hopefully that's not the case in Starfleet...

 

[CetiAlphanEel]

Slavery was allowed in the U.S. long ago. Doesn't mean it was right.

Same with not allowing suicide as an option outside of terminal illness. Just because it's not allowed now doesn't mean that's right. Nobody has the right to force a person to live with a disability if they do not feel that is something they can live with. Should a doctor try to convince the patient otherwise? Sure, absolutely. But to not even consider what he was going through, including his beliefs and values, and make that decision FOR him? Absolutely not! It's as simple as this: a person's life is THEIR life. THEIR decision. And if they decide it should end due to a disability or illness that they feel they are not capable living with, then it is THEIR decision on whether it should end or not.

Forgive the double post but it's kinda weird to see someone argue that suicide should be allowed. As someone who was suicidal at one point, I'm glad it's not accepted. Expressing suicidal thoughts generally gets you out in a mental health hold since we as a society acknowledge that suicide isn't something we should generally tolerate

 

[AntonyF]

I meant US jurisdictions but yeah, in Canada they actually do allow what you mention and their health care system controversially pushes it at times on disabled people as to save money. Which I think people will agree is dystopian and hopefully that's not the case in Starfleet...

Well the US is not the collective "we" and it's not the Federation. To address this and your next post Worf is Klingon. He's not even human.

I think there has to be some cultural factors taken into account. To him he may head off to stovokor after. How is it Beverley's position to deny that truth?

Now she should be pissed off with the notion. To say it's not something she backs. That's what should make it ring true. But she was a bit arrogant in suggesting one one way forward was the one she knew Worf was denying as suitable and leading him to that final decision.

It's ironic as I was talking about the frequent suicide references in the latest Picard and how I didn't like it. But I guess Worf is a bit different. And suicide is a human concept with which his actions were benchmarked by.

 

[Farscape One]

Forgive the double post but it's kinda weird to see someone argue that suicide should be allowed. As someone who was suicidal at one point, I'm glad it's not accepted. Expressing suicidal thoughts generally gets you out in a mental health hold since we as a society acknowledge that suicide isn't something we should generally tolerate

My main thing is a person's right of choice. In the case of "Ethics", it happens to be Worf wishing to perform ritual suicide is one of his options of choice, and in his view, the only viable option. (Until Russell went against Crusher's blockading and gave him the full list of options on the table, which was the new treatment.)

 

[Farscape One]

Well the US is not the collective "we" and it's not the Federation. To address this and your next post Worf is Klingon. He's not even human.

I think there has to be some cultural factors taken into account. To him he may head off to stovokor after. How is it Beverley's position to deny that truth?

Now she should be pissed off with the notion. To say it's not something she backs. That's what should make it ring true. But she was a bit arrogant in suggesting one one way forward was the one she knew Worf was denying as suitable and leading him to that final decision.

It's ironic as I was talking about the frequent suicide references in the latest Picard and how I didn't like it. But I guess Worf is a bit different. And suicide is a human concept with which his actions were benchmarked by.

Worf not even being human is exactly something that needed consideration. And to Picard's credit, he understood this in the episode. (I have some issues with him, but one of the things I loved most about Picard was he very much respected a person's right to choice. "The Enemy" was another excellent illustration of this.) You can't make a Klingon hold human values, just as you can't expect a human to hold Klingon values. Or any other combination you can think of.

I think a lot of people looking at Worf there see it mostly through their own values, which is fine because we essentially do that with everything anyway. But probably a lot of the pushback against Worf is because they are seeing his scenario entirely through a human lense, rather than seeing it from his Klingon view.

 

[AntonyF]

Yeah. Oh and this is a species that constantly shouts "today is a good day to die" we should remember.

When your entire culture sees death as just a thing that happens, that sets your world view. It's the humans that have a different world view. I mean many humans even hate the words death and die. The person "passed". They throw the body in a bin, we have complicated death rituals.

We're different peoples.

 

[CetiAlphanEel]

Well the US is not the collective "we" and it's not the Federation. To address this and your next post Worf is Klingon. He's not even human.

I think there has to be some cultural factors taken into account. To him he may head off to stovokor after. How is it Beverley's position to deny that truth?

Now she should be pissed off with the notion. To say it's not something she backs. That's what should make it ring true. But she was a bit arrogant in suggesting one one way forward was the one she knew Worf was denying as suitable and leading him to that final decision.

It's ironic as I was talking about the frequent suicide references in the latest Picard and how I didn't like it. But I guess Worf is a bit different. And suicide is a human concept with which his actions were benchmarked by.

The problem with this is Picard chastised him for killing Duras and said something like if he can't accept Starfleet morals and regulations because of his culture, he should resign. I guess unless we are to believe suicide is allowed in Starfleet, which is contradicted by later episodes and ds9. And would just be creepy and weird

 

[Farscape One]

The problem with this is Picard chastised him for killing Duras and said something like if he can't accept Starfleet morals and regulations because of his culture, he should resign. I guess unless we are to believe suicide is allowed in Starfleet, which is contradicted by later episodes and ds9. And would just be creepy and weird

Actually, Picard was reprimanding Worf due to his leaving his post and his combadge. Essentially, going AWOL.

Wouldn't matter the reason, it's dereliction of duty.