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CetiAlphanEel
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And murdering Duras. Add that to Sisko chastising him for taking part in his brother's ritual suicide attempt, the episode just doesn't make sense even continuity wise
Duras was incidental. Ignoring his job and leaving his combadge so no one in the chain of command can get in contact with Worf was absolutely the issue.
As far as Sisko, DS9 is a Bajoran station and their laws take precedent. Obviously, Worf violated the local laws. (Worf's only real mistake in "SONS OF MOGH" was not taking a leave and bringing his brother somewhere outside Vajoran space and perform the ceremony. But then we wpuldn't have had the episode.)
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CetiAlphanEel
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Pretty sure Picard was more upset about murdering Duras and Sisko said there's only so much Starfleet will tolerate in the name of cultural diversity, and I agree with them both in those instances
To your point, Sisko did say there is a limit to how far he bends to cultural diversity and Worf reached it. Which is fine... like I said, Worf's only error was in not asking for leave and take his brother out to a moon or somewhere and perform the ritual.
Picard, though, it was still dereliction of duty. In this case, Worf was going AWOL in service to a Klingon rite/ritual/law (right of vengeance), which is against Starfleet regulstions. Had Worf gone over while he was on actual leave, there would have been no reprimand because Picard would have had no reason to give one.
It's the reverse of DS9's "BLOOD OATH"... Dax requested the leave BEFORE going off on the quest to kill the Albino. She actually did the right move, which is why she never got a reprimand.
Killing is murder though. It's not likely that suicide is outlawed.
And would he even be an offer if he were paralysed? That would be an interesting story in fact... could they find a role for him if he were paralysed.
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CetiAlphanEel
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Well yeah logically Worf could have murdered his brother on Klingon territory and just not told anyone, but that's besides the point. The point is that he violated Starfleet code of conduct by helping someone commit suicide, which I'm just going to go out on a limb and assume that would be against the rules in any military or similar organization, or hell if I did that in civilian life, I'd go to prison and rightfully so. Also in the episode Worf himself says he viewed it as murder.
Picard sent Riker and Co to try to stop Worf from murdering Duras and was clearly pissed off at it. He doesn't say "you did it while not on leave, that's a no no" he said if his culture clashes with Starfleet rules, he should resign. And yeah, makes sense. If he wants to practice Klingon culture, he should go serve on a Klingon ship.
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CetiAlphanEel
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Well I'm hoping they wouldn't have assisted suicide like that in some hypothetical "utopia"
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this. The way the scene is played out leaves room for both interpretations.
Okay. So suicide is illegal. If someone commits it what is the punishment?
I have to disagree that all killing is murder. Self defense, for instance: someone breaks into your home and tries to kill you, but you end up killing them instead. Definitely not murder.
Well no.. indeed... murder is a verdict reached after a trial.
But in the case of Worf going off to find Duras and put a knife in his throat, it'd probably meet the generally understood definition of murder or manslaughter.
My broader point is there's laws against going and killing someone. You can't do a law against suicide as how will they hold a trial with a dead person?
In Federation (or human law now), sure. But not in Klingon law or society. (Though in Klingon society and law, that can only be done under specific circumstances, like the Rite of Vengeance when a mate is mudered.)
Which is why the Klingons 'considered the matter closed'.
I'm not sure how the discussion about why Crusher is questionable got turned into Worf & his permissibility to commit ritual suicide or not, but I'm going to steer it back to what's wrong with her (that isn't wrong with Pulaski)
In Ethics, Bev is wrong for trying to blockade against his preferred method of treatment, because she objected to it being experimental. Her approval is not required. She assumes a wrongful role of superiority over the patient. She has every right to object to the other doctor's methods, but she is not in charge of anything the patient decides to do, & she uses her position to steer him away from it, as well as outright declaring she'd hold him against his will, if she suspected he'd go off, on his own recognizance, with the intent to end his life, instead of accepting her ministrations. None of this is within her authority. She can't force her doctoring on him.
And imagine the stupidity of permanently remanding a Klingon to psychiatric commitment, because they intend to die. It'd be like ordering a Vulcan to therapeutic counseling because they're suppressing their emotions. Her personal ethics about what he does or does not do are irrelevant, just as they were irrelevant when she gave him condemnation over not submitting to aid the dying Romulan in The Enemy. She doesn't have to like it, but professionally? Keep your attitude & self-righteousness to yourself.
More to this point, Bev is in general an errant crusader, who endangers her entire away team, when ordered away from a Borg crash victim, in I Borg, & does similarly in The High Ground. She demonstrates time & time again that she yields to no ulterior conviction nor authority, when she has her mind made up, about what she's going to do.
It's reckless, insubordinate, egotistical, narrow-minded, & I wish like hell they'd have just once let her taste a morsel of comeuppance for it, instead of always having it play to her favor, like with Suspicions. It's a lesson she'd had to have learned before she'd ever become the captain of the Pasteur. That conceit melts away real fast when your actions get a team member killed. That Hippocratic Oath is not always a trump card against your oath as a uniformed officer.
In Ethics, Bev is wrong for trying to blockade against his preferred method of treatment, because she objected to it being experimental. Her approval is not required. She assumes a wrongful role of superiority over the patient. She has every right to object to the other doctor's methods, but she is not in charge of anything the patient decides to do, & she uses her position to steer him away from it, as well as outright declaring she'd hold him against his will, if she suspected he'd go off, on his own recognizance, with the intent to end his life, instead of accepting her ministrations. None of this is within her authority. She can't force her doctoring on him.
And imagine the stupidity of permanently remanding a Klingon to psychiatric commitment, because they intend to die. It'd be like ordering a Vulcan to therapeutic counseling because they're suppressing their emotions. Her personal ethics about what he does or does not do are irrelevant, just as they were irrelevant when she gave him condemnation over not submitting to aid the dying Romulan in The Enemy. She doesn't have to like it, but professionally? Keep your attitude & self-righteousness to yourself.
More to this point, Bev is in general an errant crusader, who endangers her entire away team, when ordered away from a Borg crash victim, in I Borg, & does similarly in The High Ground. She demonstrates time & time again that she yields to no ulterior conviction nor authority, when she has her mind made up, about what she's going to do.
It's reckless, insubordinate, egotistical, narrow-minded, & I wish like hell they'd have just once let her taste a morsel of comeuppance for it, instead of always having it play to her favor, like with Suspicions. It's a lesson she'd had to have learned before she'd ever become the captain of the Pasteur. That conceit melts away real fast when your actions get a team member killed. That Hippocratic Oath is not always a trump card against your oath as a uniformed officer.
BINGO!!!!!
I would also add in "Who Watches The Watchers" as another example of her recklessness and self-righteousnesd making a bad situation even worse.
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CetiAlphanEel
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I mean, do I really have to answer this?
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CetiAlphanEel
Guest
So was Riker wrong for not wanting to kill Worf?
I'm barely recollecting what she did in that one lol. She beamed the hurt Mintakan guy aboard?BINGO!!!!!
I would also add in "Who Watches The Watchers" as another example of her recklessness and self-righteousnesd making a bad situation even worse.
I'll concede she's playing a little fast & loose with the Prime Directive there, (& Picard calls her our about it, & was rather uncharacteristically dispassionate about just leaving the guy to die) but she was already on site. No one is directly in jeopardy by her actions, & her infraction is only slightly more damaging than what those peepers were already guilty of. If anyone is to blame, it's the research department, doing that risky weird stuff in the 1st place. (Look how well it went with the Malcorians in First Contact)
She might be indignant about it & a little lippy
but as the onsite doctor, I can see why she'd have at least tried. No one had ordered her away, like I Borg, for the safety of the team. She's just acting within her office, & it's a sticky situation Her lippiness can be an annoyance though. Just as much as everyone enjoyed Jellico putting Deanna in a uniform, I also got some satisfaction from him dealing straight with Bev's pearl clutching, during their one briefing together. lol
Fair points, all.I'm barely recollecting what she did in that one lol. She beamed the hurt Mintakan guy aboard?
I'll concede she's playing a little fast & loose with the Prime Directive there, (& Picard calls her our about it, & was rather uncharacteristically dispassionate about just leaving the guy to die) but she was already on site. No one is directly in jeopardy by her actions, & her infraction is only slightly more damaging than what those peepers were already guilty of. If anyone is to blame, it's the research department, doing that risky weird stuff in the 1st place. (Look how well it went with the Malcorians in First Contact)
She might be indignant about it & a little lippy
Her lippiness can be an annoyance though. Just as much as everyone enjoyed Jellico putting Deanna in a uniform, I also got some satisfaction from him dealing straight with Bev's pearl clutching, during their one briefing together. lol
Why would he be? He was just acting on his own principles too, which is valid. He needn't participate in Worf's idea of what being a friend means. It only gets problematic when someone is using their position as a doctor to lord their principles over someone in the position of a patient, which Bev was doing (and also Troi to some extent, who acts as ship's counselor. I give her more of a pass though, because she's also advocating for Alexander)
At least Picard gets it. Does he approve? I'd think not, but he knows it's a free individual & his own life, & not his place to be lording his principles over a subordinate about that
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