Things that don't add up:

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by Youngster From The Id, Jun 12, 2019.

  1. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Oh, come now. Disabling internal sensors is like a basic star trek tactic for sneaking on and off a ship, probably going all the way back to the original series.
    And also in "Regeneration," which is like a sequel to FC. The Borg are kinda scary in that episode in how fast they multiply and take over.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
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  2. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It's a bit difficult to tell how "intruder alert" works. Sometimes baddies enter the ship by "conventional" ways, either making a hole in the wall, or storming the shuttlebay, or beaming in. Such intrusions basically never go unnoticed - except if it's the heroes beaming onto an enemy ship! But what is it that gets noticed? The method of arrival, or the sudden presence of an unauthorized entity? Probably not the latter, as unconventional ways of arriving (often similar to beaming in, but via superior tech) tend to go wholly unnoticed, and the computer has real trouble tracking even the authorized folks in real time unless they carry commbadges or otherwise make noise.

    If the Borg or other enemies manage to avoid triggering the "window broken" or "door forced" alarms, they might have a relatively easy time intruding further, then.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  3. Amasov

    Amasov Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I found another plothole.

    In re-watching THE SOUND OF THUNDER - which is a really great episode in and of itself, in my opinion - when the Ba'ul are about to unleash their final assault on the Kelpians, the red angel appears. The red angel releases a wave of energy that disables all of the Ba'ul's weapons at once.

    When we revisit this point in the finale, Michael doesn't do this. Michael arrives on Kamanar, looks directly at Saru and his sister, and then retreats. At no point does she actually release the energy to disable the Ba'ul's weaponry. Now, could this just be immaterial because the idea was just to show that it was Michael setting all those signals?

    Perhaps.

    But, given the importance of the angel's appearance in that moment, why not be consistent?
     
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  4. Longinus

    Longinus Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm pretty sure the whole Angel storyline was reworked at some point and when those earlier episodes were made, it was supposed to be something else. There are just so many inconsistencies.
     
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  5. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the end, we get no proof that the Red Angel (any Red Angel) had anything to do with the shutting down of the Ba'ul pylons. Pike asked the Ba'ul pretty please to shut down the pylons; a web of red beams emerged, connecting every pylon; and the pylons were shut down. For all we know, the Ba'ul simply did what Pike asked them to do, then, oblivious to the annoying buzzing of an intruding angel.

    The greater oddity in S2 of DSC is that there are several distinct sets of "seven red signs". The seven that Michael creates are not the seven that originally caught everybody's attention - it's a major plot point that the map of the original seven gives no hint as to where these later Red Signs will appear. That is, only one of them is ever known to reappear: the first one that takes the heroes to the Hiawatha is right where one of the original seven used to be, and Pike says as much.

    So there are two distinct sets, with only one known commonality (the Hiawatha sign) and one potential even if unconfirmed commonality (the Terralysium sign, because it would be the only one of the original seven that would not utterly overlap the Hiawatha one on the map). Other signs are certain to be different: if one of the original seven had appeared over Boreth, the Klingons most definitely would know, say!

    There is no fault in this as such. Neither Michael nor Gabrielle created the original seven Red Signs, but anybody can build an Angel Suit, and even the two Burnhams can go back in time to create the original seven at some later moment, this being a time machine and all. It's just that the writers probably didn't realize what they were doing here, and may never bother to return to this issue. Or worse still, will return to it, confusing it further...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
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  6. Amasov

    Amasov Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Except it happens right in front of us; the angel unleashes an electromagnetic energy wave that stops the weaponry outright. You see all of it shut down just after the wave is used. This was the whole point of the angel showing up in the first place, because the balance of power between the two had to shift; which is why the Kelpians were using Ba'ul fighters in the final battle. The Ba'ul didn't surrender at the last moment. They were not overpowed as evidenced by the fact that the bridge crew on Discovery established that they were unable to take out all of the Ba'uls weaponry at once.
     
  7. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    There's no "point" in the story that would have been spelled out for us. What we see is what we get. And what we see is the pylons shutting down after Pike says this is the decent thing to do.

    That the Ba'ul would be unyieldingly hostile is a pretty odd assumption to make, when the big story twist we actually see is the one where they turn out to have been the underdogs and victims, acting out of desperate necessity only, and stopping well short of erasing the hostile species. But the story is full of oddities in any case. Say, how come the big command base is right next to Saru's village, out of all places? (Or is it simply mobile, and Saru's return reason enough to move it exactly there?) It's just that we don't need to know, and indeed have no justification for claiming to know. Or even for claiming to being able to know.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  8. Gonzo

    Gonzo Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    As long as Burnham has access to the suit she can create as many signals as she wants, she hasnt created that one yet but that doesnt mean she never will, if they want it all to tie up they can cover that in Season 3.

    Alternatively it could simply be something that was overlooked.

    It really wouldnt surprise me at all. :shrug:
     
  9. Amasov

    Amasov Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I’m starting to wonder if we saw the same show.
     
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  10. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The writers obviously had some ideas. It's just that they left all of them half-baked, and gave no lines to the Ba'ul, nor any sort of a fifth-act mopup speech to explicate what just happened.

    By in-universe logic, Michael shouldn't have been able to do anything about the Ba'ul pylons: her suit wasn't armed as far as we can tell. Gabrielle's supposedly was, though, with resurrection rays and whatnot. But Gabrielle would have had little reason to meddle.

    Remarkably, "Sounds of Thunder" is the first time the Red Angel appears twice. First, there's the Red Sign that disappears just as always before the heroes arrive. And then there's this revealing act. But we never see Michael do the Sign - we cut straight into her doing the revealing bit. Did she do the Sign, too, or was that somebody else?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
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  11. Novak Senkovic

    Novak Senkovic Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    it was off camera
     
  12. Ríu ríu chíu

    Ríu ríu chíu Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Not without a functioning time crystal, she can't.
     
  13. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    She probably can, though. She has already invalidated two ways in which the crystal might fail her:

    1) She makes multiple jumps instead of one, right in front of our eyes, so that is not a plausible limitation.
    2) She makes one additional jump that shows up months after the first set, so even if the crystal quickly decays with passing time, that is not a limitation on creating Red Signs at random later times.

    Really, the above two would also appear to wholly negate the very concept that she can't get back. If she can make the "Hi Spock, we made it!" Sign, by definition she could have used those frequent flier points for returning home, too. It's too bad she condemned a shipful of her friends to eternal banishment through such gross error of judgement...

    Of course, there's no shortage of time crystals on Boreth. And no shortage of quick-refill supernovas if you have a spore drive.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  14. Longinus

    Longinus Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It is pointless to speculate on such things. This show does not function based on any discernible logic. Things just happen and they're connected to each other only on emotional level, not on logical one. Stuff may be established in a previous episode, or indeed earlier in the same one, but then another thing needs to happen later, so it does, regardless of if it contradicts what was said or seen earlier.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2019
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  15. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    This is Star Trek. Pointless speculation is a part of life.
     
  16. Gonzo

    Gonzo Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Like I said a while back, the planet with the time crystals will still be there in the future, even if it isnt I have no doubt Burnham will trip over a spare one while jogging around the saucer or find one stashed behind the toilet.
     
  17. Amasov

    Amasov Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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  18. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yup. Michael in her unarmed suit arrives with the explicit purpose of getting seen by Saru. Simultaneously, the pylon network shuts down with great rapport, the pylons themselves falling on the beaches in pieces.

    Seems the Ba'ul saw the error of their ways or at least the futility of their cause, then, and channeled mighty energies into the scuttling of the control network before its continuing existence led to a war with the Federation. :devil:

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  19. Phoenix219

    Phoenix219 Commodore Commodore

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    This only adds to my speculation that they are a certain number of iterations into a loop, and the timeline has been rewritten multiple times; Those are probably signs from a previous go-round, who's causes and effects are now immaterial if not paradoxal.
     
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  20. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It would be nice to come up with a loop scenario that would justify these Signs popping up all across the galaxy, instead of just around the suburbs of Sol. The hero ship being a galactic one helps out there (and her no doubt continuing to be that in season three), but the nice Suits really ought to have galactic scope to whatever they do, too.

    Then again, going galactic may have been a pure publicity stunt from the Suit wearer, purely to retroactively kickstart a series of events, exactly as provincial as what we got.

    Timo Saloniemi