The Would-Be Season Five
- Thread starter Anubis
- Start date
This could have gone either way. I hate cat aliens, but it could have been a fun episode provided they didn't take the Kzinti all that seriously. Basically, this could have been the next 'In the Mirror Darkly' or the next 'Bound': Fan service that's fun, or fan service that's
.An excellent idea.
This isn't really a plot at all. One would need to know what the episode is about. Which is naturally academic at this point.
See my viewpoint on the Kzinti. The difference is this premise has, well, a lot more promise. 'The Cloud Miners' wasn't the best episode of TOS, but it had a fun premise and an entertaining environment. For that alone this could have been a treat.
They'd have to explain why she looks older than she does centuries later on TNG, no? Not fond of this idea. Again, like Kzinti and the Cloud Miners, this is shameless fan service, but season four was by and large an excerise in fan service done right. If the episode has more to it than Guinan, well, maybe.
Should I just cut'n'repaste what I just said?
The most promising idea here is Denobula, which would be a good test of the writer's creativity rather than their knack for pillaging Trek's pulpy past. There were some nice weird touches to the Denobulans, and I would have liked to see what they came up with - provided it's not another generic soft-light planet that TNG churned out ad nauseam, you understand.This is actually canonically inconsistent. Susannah Thompson's Borg Queen describes herself as being from Species 125. Humans are species 5618. While Krige does not, their non-cybernetic alien makeup is essentially the same. It bears more than a passing resemblance to VOY's Kobali.
In other words, this plot wouldn't work on the only level it's supposed to, which is, again, fan service. Also, I've seen enough of the Borg, thanks.
This sounds a lot like a fannish theory for explaining T'Pol's behaviour, but then, so do a lot of Mike Sussman's pitches and episodes.
So, in my summation? S5 looks like it would have been interesting, for the same reasons S4 was: An entertaining blend of fan service and action-adventure. So it's a pity we never got to see it, but I won't claim it's some holy grail of genius either.
Basically, any of these ideas could work on that level, or could also be dreadful failures. The only ones I'll give a definitive affirmative to is adding Shran to the cast, a definite negative would be the Borg Queen idea.
I like all of those ideas including the Borg Queen one. The Reeves-Stevenses demonstrated they could use pre-existing Trek elements in creatively clever ways to prduce interesting and entertaining prequel stories so I don't see why this wouldn't be any different.
This outline along with season four showed that ENT was just tapping into its potential. It really could have at the end of the day eclipsed DS9 in terms of epicness with the build up to the Federation, the Romulan War, the world-building that was begun with stories like the Vulcan trilogy/Terra Prime etc, the MU saga, Section 31, adding the Columbia/Hernandez as another SF perspective, a possible revisit to the TCW etc.
This outline along with season four showed that ENT was just tapping into its potential. It really could have at the end of the day eclipsed DS9 in terms of epicness with the build up to the Federation, the Romulan War, the world-building that was begun with stories like the Vulcan trilogy/Terra Prime etc, the MU saga, Section 31, adding the Columbia/Hernandez as another SF perspective, a possible revisit to the TCW etc.
I disagree. The writers left her origins and what she is so vague that there is enough wiggle room for the Reeves-Stevenses to work with it and possibly provide a clever and entertaining explanation in the process.
One of the most debated topics has always been the Borg Queen and up until now no one has provided a clear and definitive answer. Even the various writers including Moore and Braga have stated in interviews that they weren't quite sure what she was.
Who's to say that the Dark Frontier Queen is the same as the Unimatrix Zero one or the FC Queen--even Braga hinted that the queens despite being played by the same actresses might be different. We have no idea what the Queen's original form looked like as far as a species' appearance due to the assimilation process for th Queen. And it is entirely possible that certain assimilated drones like Seven are groomed to replace a Queen and in this instance the Dark Frontier Queen was originally from species 125 while the FC Queen was from species 5618.
Also the ENT story might not be providing the origin of the Queen idea within the Borg Collective but the origin of the FC Queen. Perhaps the Borg that the Alice Krige character would have encountered in this proposed episode would have needed a Queen and she was handy.
They're going to have to explain how she became Species 125, though. Maybe if Alice Krige was a nonhuman. That's really all it would take to patch up that plot, but judging from posts above she'd definitely be human. So it would be a continuity error.
The issue isn't whether they are the same or different Queens. It's that they have some makeup that is clearly not part of their Borg implants, and thus is a designation of species - those colorations and grooves on the upper hand of their heads. Both of them have the same one. Therefore, tehy're both the same species, even if they're not the same Queen.
I don't follow. If you are suggesting that all Queens come fom species 125, I think there is no reason to conclude this. It is not supported by any evidence within the series or FC.
I see this as easily dismissed. Even if this is the case I'm willing to suspend disbelief if everything else about the story works. I'm not about to get caught up over something that minor in my opinion.
You could even argue that the upgrades that a drone would further undergo in becoming the Queen could account for it or there could be hardware/implants under the skin giving this appearance. Afterall uniformity is a big deal among the Borg. Heck the Endgame Queen has a forehead make-up appliance that wasn't on the previous Queens that suggests species appearance more so than technology. So it really wouldn't be a big deal for me. I realize it might be an obstacle for others though.
No, I'm just saying the Queen(s) Alice Krige played in First Contact and 'Endgame' were that species.
In my opinion, as stated, the only way this story could work is as an act of fan service. And it doesn't work as fan service if it has a hole in its continuity. It may have still been fun, but as it's also another Borg episode I'd have my doubt.
I thought that post was fairly thorough.
If you mean why don't I post here often, well, that's a fair question. ENT is the one Trek show I watched the least, it's the one that finally drove me away from the franchise (with "Stigma") albeit it ultimately lured me back (with S4's Augment arc).
I wander in and post whenever I see an interesting thread. This qualified.
If you mean why don't I post here often, well, that's a fair question. ENT is the one Trek show I watched the least, it's the one that finally drove me away from the franchise (with "Stigma") albeit it ultimately lured me back (with S4's Augment arc).
I wander in and post whenever I see an interesting thread. This qualified.
First, by your criteria(grooves and such) the Endgame Queen is not the same species as the FC one since the Endgame version has a forehead appliance different from all the previous Queens including the FC one.
I agree that a large part of the fun in doing such a story is its appeal to long time Trek fans.
But you are making it out as though it is a cut-and-dry hole in continuity created by your hang-up with the idea that the grooves etc on the head are definitive confirmation that it is vestiges of the original species' appearance.
I'm arguing that there is enough room for other fans to argue otherwise and moreso I'm inclined to do that if the story works. There are plenty of ways the writers or the viewer could circumvent the issue if it is an issue at all. You could argue that the grooves are not from species 125 but from the species of the original Borg Queen and all subsequent models are altered to have them. Afterall in Trek DNA transformation is commonplace. The Borg nanoprobes could accomplish the creation of grooves.
All I'm saying that while you might perceive it as a hole in continuity I don't and apparently the Reeves-Stevenses didn't as well.
But ya gotta love obsessive Trek fans--I can't believe I'm actually debating something so minor that most people wouldn't give two seconds thought to.
Alice Krige in First Contact, and Alice Krige in 'Endgame.' Looks like essentially the same to me.
For the record, I don't mind if the new Star Trek movie throws continuity out the window and to the dogs, so long as it's good. However, unlike this story, fan service is not its selling point. And for fan service to work, it's got to be very observant of the established canon.
Which I think it clearly is not in this case; you may consider my continuity criticism minor - it is - and baseless - it is not, but it's the kind of thing this kind of story should take in hand.
For the record, I don't mind if the new Star Trek movie throws continuity out the window and to the dogs, so long as it's good. However, unlike this story, fan service is not its selling point. And for fan service to work, it's got to be very observant of the established canon.
Which I think it clearly is not in this case; you may consider my continuity criticism minor - it is - and baseless - it is not, but it's the kind of thing this kind of story should take in hand.
Well there appears to me that there are slight modifications that are subtle to forehead and around the eyebrow area that look a bit sharper. Here is a link.
I agree up to a point. What you don't seem to understand is that in the scheme of things the ambiguity of certain features in the make-up of the Queen is very minor for me and I suspect for others as well. And I'm not even sure it could be a legitimate violation of established canon because this strikes me as not being universally agreed upon due to all the ways you could work around it and how people perceive the physical features.
Without onscreen evidence stating that those grooves are indeed features not caused by technological infiltration I'm not ready to say it is a violation.
Then like so many things is going to come down to the indvidual and what they perceive and/or willing to accept.
So we'll have to agree to disagree. I simply don't see it as something the writers should be concerned with.
But who is to say it isn't caused by hosing and other technological wiring/tubing/gadgets under the skin that raise the skin. And I would suspect only the Queen would possess these particular grooves since she isn't quite like the average drone.
Captain X
Rear Admiral
I can't disagree more about Shran or the Borg epsiode. What the hell would've Shran done anyway? Yeah, he's a likable character, I liked him, but there was no place for him on Enterprise. They barely made use of at least two main characters they already had anyway, and even Reed got pushed more into the background, as did pretty much everyone else but Archer, Trip and T'Pol. Does anyone honestly think that would've gotten any better by adding a redundant character? And what about Shran? He was the commander of his own ship. Anything less than that would be a step down for him. Would it really do his character any justice to add him to the NX-01 roster?
Same thing Worf did on DS9, or Seven did on VOY: No really well defined job, probably partially usurp the job of some others, largely on the show for interactions with other characters.
I'd again lean towards the Worf/Seven analogy. The writers deliberately ignored the supporting cast - arguably, we got to know Shran better than we ever did Travis. Had he been brought onboard I'm sure they could have made him a major player in the dynamic, even - as in the case of Seven - at the expense of less important characters.
As a character, it's a step down for him. But in terms of his importance to the show, it's a step up. To make a Farscape analogy, Baylar Crais was more important to that show when he was a disgraced Peacekeper and a regular character, and less important when he was stll a Peacekeeper commander and a recurring character.
It's not that out-of-character a development either: Shran implied at the end of the Babel/Romulan arc that it would be a while before he got another command.
And how do you disagree with my opinion on the Borg, out of curiosity? Is it the same in substance to startrekwatcher?
Uh... then how do you disagree with me, exactly?
I said:
You said:
Which makes sense as far as Shran is concerned, but as I didn't like the Borg idea (and have been arguing with startrekwatcher that she is in-fact nonhuman for most of this thread) I fail to see the point of divergence.
I said:
You said:
Which makes sense as far as Shran is concerned, but as I didn't like the Borg idea (and have been arguing with startrekwatcher that she is in-fact nonhuman for most of this thread) I fail to see the point of divergence.
No one has a way of knowing that it would be poor until you've actually seen the finished product.
I remember many were up in arms over "Regeneration" when spoilers first leaked for it but in the end many felt it was very well done and a highlight of season two.
This strikes me as the sort of notion fans get into their heads and believe is fact when in reality it isn't nearly as definitive or accurate as they remembered when you actually review the episodes.
A lot of this sort of thing plagued ENT where viewers misremembered certain things such as the date of Klingon hostilities in Day of the Dove or Spock being the first Vulcan in SF etc.
All we really know is there seems to be only one Queen at a time who resides in Unimatrix One where she coordinates the Collective(Dark Frontier) and on certain instances she'll acompany the drones. Her destruction seems to detroy any drones connected to her(First Contact). One Queen claimed she was assimilated as a child(Unimatrix Zero II). Does the Collective select among assimilated female drones assimilated as a child to become a Queen?
Afterall Seven was too assimilated as a child and having been indoctrinated into the Collective as a youngster would be more open to Borg philosophy and wouldn't resist it explaining why she and the Queens are permitted far more individual thought because there isn't a risk of resisting.
We know one Queen in Dark Frontier says she came from Species 125. We have no definitive onscreen information as to what species the other Queens are from. We can't even be sure the FC Queen is the same Queen(cloned perhaps) as the one in Endgame. We don't know if the Queen existed before the Collective or later on and if later on exactly when and why. Who knows this proposed episode might have finally answered it.
Brannon Braga in Star Trek: The Magazine said that the Dark Frontier Queen died at the end when the transwarp conduit was collapsed and even though Susanna Thompson played the DF and UZ Queen the Unimatrix Zero Queen was different.
So despite how often the Borg appeared on VOY we learned relatively little about the Queen so the writers have a wide latitude in playing around with it.
I'm not saying anyone has to like the idea but they should at least not criticize it for a reason that very well might not be legitimate.
I would argue that the Reeves-Stevenses are just as much entitled to interpret stories and elements from various episodes as the fans. It might not be the way a certain fan would do it and I'm sure there are many other ways to address it.
Actually this back-and-forth in this thread has me even more curious about the episode. I would have liked the Reeves-Stevenses to have elaborated further on the idea. Mike Sussman used to post here maybe he could shed some light on it
Similar threads
