The Walking Dead Season 6 Discussion

[sojourner]

I love the dichotomy of in one episode Glenn being able to find a gun and ammo in a church and a few episodes later we come across an entire group of people that have somehow managed to run out of ammo. The zombie apocalypse somehow managed to leave only the stupid alive.

 

[bbjeg]

I say again, yes. Either you lose them in battle or you lose them when they starve or you lose them in a herd attack. You don't eliminate the risk of losing a core member by doing nothing. Not in this world. Taking on this mission brought immediate benefit and promises further potential benefit.

True, but storming a stronghold for food is one of the worst ways they could do it for. That trailer with canned food and other bagged goods that Jesus put at the bottom of that lake still sits there. Diving seems simpler then fighting a greater force.

 

[Arrrrgggh]

True, but storming a stronghold for food is one of the worst ways they could do it for. That trailer with canned food and other bagged goods that Jesus put at the bottom of that lake still sits there. Diving seems simpler then fighting a greater force.

Not really, not when you know zombies can survive in the water, and not when the water is so muddy that you can't even see your own hand in front of your face. Good luck trying to get me to dive in there.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

True, but storming a stronghold for food is one of the worst ways they could do it for.

It is a suicidal move, and all who agreed to the attack can be blamed 100% for everything Negan does to the group from that point forward.

Their plan is a Governor move--killing threats and taking their possessions. That's what the Governor's group did to the National Guard unit (and from that action, we can assume other outsiders suffered the same fate). Ultimately, it leads to the destruction of the attacking group.

That trailer with canned food and other bagged goods that Jesus put at the bottom of that lake still sits there. Diving seems simpler then fighting a greater force.

Agreed.

Not really, not when you know zombies can survive in the water, and not when the water is so muddy that you can't even see your own hand in front of your face. Good luck trying to get me to dive in there.

Better to try diving and killing water-rotted zombies along the way, instead of going after a barely known (but proven) threat with numbers, and weapons that might overwhelm you. If they retrieved the wrapped food in the truck, that would help out to immeasurable levels, while others can continue searching for more.

That's better than pissing off the next Big Bad, and suffering yet more tragedy...which is on schedule to happen.

 

[Admiral2]

It is a suicidal move, and all who agreed to the attack can be blamed 100% for everything Negan does to the group from that point forward.

Their plan is a Governor move--killing threats and taking their possessions. That's what the Governor's group did to the National Guard unit (and from that action, we can assume other outsiders suffered the same fate). Ultimately, it leads to the destruction of the attacking group.



Agreed.



Better to try diving and killing water-rotted zombies along the way, instead of going after a barely known (but proven) threat with numbers, and weapons that might overwhelm you. If they retrieved the wrapped food in the truck, that would help out to immeasurable levels, while others can continue searching for more.

That's better than pissing off the next Big Bad, and suffering yet more tragedy...which is on schedule to happen.

If it's on schedule to happen, what makes you think not attacking Negan will prevent it? Again, there's no guarantee that something else won't kill another core member, like, I dunno, going diving in a lake with no real idea of the threats and the environment (how deep is it, is it contaminated, can you just dive in or do you need equipment?) Negan and the Saviors, though an unknown threat , is at least a predictable one: It's some asshole with guys and guns. Been there, done that.

There is no option with no risk. Attacking Negan is the option most likely to be successful and has already started out with a benefit.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Diving seems simpler then fighting a greater force.

The problem is that they don't think the Saviors are actually a greater force, though. Daryl even said that he thinks their alleged numbers are "Bullshit" and that they're just a paper tiger who make a tough first impression to cover for the fact that they're not actually that powerful.

So you've got Rick's group overconfident from past victories and recently going into God Mode and killing 1,800 Walkers hand-to-hand, combined with poor intelligence and baseless assumptions about the enemy camp's size, which is a recipe for disaster.

 

[hux]

Curious to see how Morgan responds to their new role as hired killers.

Someone important in the group is obviously going to die but it's so sign-posted that it might not be who we expect (I still say the baby... the absolute ultimate punishment for Rick's over confidence) and it's clear that Negan is in the show for the foreseeable future so without any need to see it, we already know it isn't going to play out the way they want.

Even without the comics, the writers know that the audience is ahead of the curve on this so I'm not sure what they're playing at.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Someone important in the group is obviously going to die but it's so sign-posted that it might not be who we expect.

I tend to agree.

Spoiler: Comics Spoiler

I think the whole Glenn's death fakeout earlier in the season and then his near death while Alexandria was being overrun was the producers playing with the audience's anticipation of Glenn's death at Negan's hand in the comics. I think they've kind of shot their wad on making people upset or shocked about him dying now, so they'll substitute another well-liked character instead.

Plus, they're just laying it on so damn thick with the ultrasound and marital bliss and inside references that it comes off as either a misdirect or really hamfisted writing if they do end up killing him afterall.

It would be pretty damn brutal, but I could see Maggie getting shot through the stomach and the baby dying as sort of a replacement for the way Judith was killed in the comics. They had Lori get eaten right after birth and just had a ten year old get devoured, so I don't think they're unwilling to cross the shock value line of shooting a pregnant woman (or worse).

The upside for Maggie is that she's supposed to take over running the Hilltop Colony as per the comics, so they might want to follow that on the show as well since it's an interesting development for the character that they've already been building toward.

I think they're also playing up Abraham's potential death a lot, between him contemplating settling down, the love triangle with Sasha and Rosita, the necklace being symbolically dropped, and his general head in the clouds behavior lately. Plus, he's always got to shoot his mouth off when they're captured.

I think losing Daryl would have the most impact of anyone, though. He's kind of reached the pinnacle of his development as a character, he's not from the comics, and now Jesus kind of fulfills the same role of unconventional combat style badass tracker/recruiter.

 

[Arrrrgggh]

Better to try diving and killing water-rotted zombies along the way, instead of going after a barely known (but proven) threat with numbers, and weapons that might overwhelm you. If they retrieved the wrapped food in the truck, that would help out to immeasurable levels, while others can continue searching for more.

I really don't get your logic there at all. They now know that Negan is a real threat. Provisions or not, he has to be dealt with before he becomes a legitimate problem, especially since they effectively have surprise on their side right now. Getting Hilltop to trade with them was just icing on the proverbial cake; even if they had the truck's supplies, they'd have still gone to Hilltop and tried to barter for more. This just happened to also feel like it was something worth trading for.

 

[bbjeg]

Not really, not when you know zombies can survive in the water, and not when the water is so muddy that you can't even see your own hand in front of your face. Good luck trying to get me to dive in there.

I'd rather go in. I'm also confused why I don't see more of what Milton from Woodbury did, duct tape wrappings/anti zombie bitting armor. At this point, duct tape should be easier to find than food and, with enough, teeth and nails won't stand a chance.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I really don't get your logic there at all. They now know that Negan is a real threat. Provisions or not, he has to be dealt with before he becomes a legitimate problem, especially since they effectively have surprise on their side right now.

..and

If it's on schedule to happen, what makes you think not attacking Negan will prevent it?

Attacking or harming someone you do not have a direct conflict with begs for retaliation. Merle kidnapped Glenn & Maggie, which was a domino effect leading to the destruction of Woodbury. .If Merle parted ways with them, with no hostility, Woodbury might be functioning today. Or, if the Governor--after Maggie & Glenn were rescued--called it even (knowing it was all about the two kidnapped strangers), Woodbury still stands.

What Rick's group is attempting with Negan is worse--its a seek and destroy mission at a point when we can assume Negan knows nothing about ASZ. At best, the Saviors who chased Daryl, Sasha & Abraham know there were people in the general area, but after all of this time in the ZA, had no clue about the whereabouts of the ASZ. For all they knew, the trio were wandering scavengers--no one local. In fact, the unit Daryl killed did not know. That means it was possible for Negan to never come across the heroes at any time in the future, but thanks to Rick essentially waiting to shoot him in the face after ringing the doorbell, he's asking for a group:

• now known for beating people to death (remember the line in the last episode)
• a group who said they usually introduce themselves by killing one of their captives.

Keep in mind that you might think that is the "direct conflict" I said they did not have, but dead witnesses means no intelligence, no location, no direct conflict. Rick's group is begging for what is going to happen. They would have been better off letting Hilltop handle its own problems.

Plus, they're just laying it on so damn thick with the ultrasound and marital bliss and inside references that it comes off as either a misdirect or really hamfisted writing if they do end up killing him afterall.

It would be pretty damn brutal, but I could see Maggie getting shot through the stomach and the baby dying as sort of a replacement for the way Judith was killed in the comics. They had Lori get eaten right after birth and just had a ten year old get devoured, so I don't think they're unwilling to cross the shock value line of shooting a pregnant woman (or worse).

I'm starting to think Maggie is one of the top candidates to die. As you point out, the bliss/ultrasound stuff was spread thick, and if you add Glenn's numerous hope speeches to Enid, it would be grim irony for him to have that belief all come crumbling down with Hershel's last surviving relative--that family of faith--die (just like her sister and father) thanks to extreme violence.

I think they're also playing up Abraham's potential death a lot, between him contemplating settling down, the love triangle with Sasha and Rosita, the necklace being symbolically dropped, and his general head in the clouds behavior lately. Plus, he's always got to shoot his mouth off when they're captured.

Or, it might cost Rosita and/or Sasha their lives.

I think losing Daryl would have the most impact of anyone, though. He's kind of reached the pinnacle of his development as a character, he's not from the comics, and now Jesus kind of fulfills the same role of unconventional combat style badass tracker/recruiter.

The Jesus character is no replacement for Daryl--particualrly how Daryl has impacted the lives of the comic-based characters. .

There's still some development for Daryl. A couple of pages ago, I said the Carol/Daryl ship had sailed, but who knows? After the mass devastation of the Wolves and zombie attack, perhaps Carol will want to not only secure the ASZ...but actually start living again.

 

[Arrrrgggh]

Attacking or harming someone you do not have a direct conflict with begs for retaliation.

There's a phrase for this: Preemptive Strike.

They know that Negan is a threat. They have been attacked by Negan's forces. And they know that if Negan was aware of their settlement, he'd be doing the same sorts of things to them as he's done to Hilltop.

With that knowledge at hand, only a complete fool would just sit around twiddling their thumbs waiting to be attacked themselves. Doubly so when they've have to face several similar villains in the past. Their encounter with the Governor alone practically demands that they go on the offensive while the advantage is still theirs.

 

[hux]

If Negan was capable of forcing Alexandria into a hilltop scenario, wouldn't that suggest they're a meaningful force; not to be trifled with.

So attacking that force is probably unwise.

Only way it makes sense to me is if they do it surreptitiously; pick their numbers off one by one but only of course AFTER ensuring that Alexandria is made into a fortress should retaliation become an issue.

It sounded like Rick was just planning a straight forward attack. They're gonna lose.

 

[Arrrrgggh]

The big thing that confuses me is that they assume the Wolves and Negan are separate entities. We also never learned who actually set all those clever zombie traps we saw earlier in the series, and based on how dimwitted the Wolves appeared to be, it didn't really seem like something they'd be capable of doing.

All Rick had to do was say that they were going to start off with a recon-style mission, rather than imply they were going in head first and guns blazing. At least that would make more sense.

 

[Morpheus 02]

The big thing that confuses me is that they assume the Wolves and Negan are separate entities. We also never learned who actually set all those clever zombie traps we saw earlier in the series, and based on how dimwitted the Wolves appeared to be, it didn't really seem like something they'd be capable of doing.

All Rick had to do was say that they were going to start off with a recon-style mission, rather than imply they were going in head first and guns blazing. At least that would make more sense.

Oh, man...said what I wanted...

You're right..unless they determined what the deal was with the wolves..seems like they are still a threat, unless for some reason they were allied with Negan. (Or the group that the Saviors are saving people from...or that the Wolves were created by Negan to create the "need" for saviors)

Negan clearly will be a threat at some point. The smart thing would be to spy on them & assess first. Rick's plan does seem pretty reckless..i know getting back a person would prove their worth, and Negan's team might not be all that...but without the element of surprise, Rick's team will get hurt by vengeance seekers.

 

[Admiral2]

Attacking or harming someone you do not have a direct conflict with begs for retaliation. Merle kidnapped Glenn & Maggie, which was a domino effect leading to the destruction of Woodbury. .If Merle parted ways with them, with no hostility, Woodbury might be functioning today. Or, if the Governor--after Maggie & Glenn were rescued--called it even (knowing it was all about the two kidnapped strangers), Woodbury still stands.

What Rick's group is attempting with Negan is worse--its a seek and destroy mission at a point when we can assume Negan knows nothing about ASZ. At best, the Saviors who chased Daryl, Sasha & Abraham know there were people in the general area, but after all of this time in the ZA, had no clue about the whereabouts of the ASZ. For all they knew, the trio were wandering scavengers--no one local. In fact, the unit Daryl killed did not know. That means it was possible for Negan to never come across the heroes at any time in the future, but thanks to Rick essentially waiting to shoot him in the face after ringing the doorbell, he's asking for a group:

• now known for beating people to death (remember the line in the last episode)
• a group who said they usually introduce themselves by killing one of their captives.

Keep in mind that you might think that is the "direct conflict" I said they did not have, but dead witnesses means no intelligence, no location, no direct conflict. Rick's group is begging for what is going to happen. They would have been better off letting Hilltop handle its own problems.

And prolonging their own biggest problem in the process. Why?

You talk about retaliation as if that's the only way the Saviors will strike, but Hilltop didn't do anything to the Saviors before they came...and they still came. Deal with them now or deal with them later, they'll still have to be dealt with. Why not now, when there's motivation to do it? You talk about losses as though they've never lost anybody...then you point out who they've lost. It's easy to talk yourself into inaction, which is the reason why sometimes you can't let yourself do that.

Again, there is no action without risk. Doing nothing entails risk. Diving for the food entails risk. Taking on the Saviors ad hoc entails risk, and the risk in each case is exactly the same: friendly casualties. Under those circumstances you make the choice based on benefits:

-Walk away: Zero benefit. Hilltop is screwed, ASZ starves and Negan deals with ASZ at his own leisure.

-Walk away and bob for food: Marginal benefit, because your fate is dependent how much food has survived a day and change in water and figuring out what resources you need to retrieve it.

-Make the deal: Immediate benefit, because payment for the group's fighting skills is half Hilltop's food up front. You finally get a good meal and get to fuel up for the mission at hand, which is one you have the resources for and have done before. At best you take out a threat before it can ever hurt you. At worst, you give it enough of a bloody nose so that when it eventually comes it knows you're a serious threat. Then it's just a matter of regrouping and being that serious threat.

 

[hux]

I doing think anyone is suggesting they don't deal with Negan; its more the nonchalant manner of just assuming they can deal with it without any serious consequences. Alexandria is still hugely vulnerable but they're happily inviting danger. If the next few episodes involve planning, reconnaissance and a general sense of battening down the hatches at Alexandria before beginning, then fine. But Rick didn't seem to be suggesting that though; he seemed to be suggesting... We just go in and kill Negan. Easy.

I'm starting to think Jesus was deliberately asked by Gregory to go out and find experienced killers (who weren't too psychotic) to deal with Negan. After all, they don't have much to trade until he's dealt with.

 

[Arrrrgggh]

Despite them not presenting it well, I think Rick's plan is just to go in and get the guy and leave. If they can take care of Negan in the process, so be it. But his main plan is just to get the guy, get some intel, and seal the deal with Hilltop then figure out what to do afterwards.

'Course, that's not how it actually came across. And either way, it's a really stupid plan, especially since the intended one would ruin the only real advantage they'd have against Negan: Surprise.

 

[Silvercrest]

I'm starting to think Jesus was deliberately asked by Gregory to go out and find experienced killers (who weren't too psychotic) to deal with Negan. After all, they don't have much to trade until he's dealt with.

It's an interesting point. Although, really: Gregory seems just pompous enough and just shortsighted enough that I can't see that coming from him.

On the other hand, I can easily imagine Jesus coming up with it on his own.

 

[Morpheus 02]

It's an interesting point. Although, really: Gregory seems just pompous enough and just shortsighted enough that I can't see that coming from him.

On the other hand, I can easily imagine Jesus coming up with it on his own.

Jesus loves RIck and has a wonderful plan for his life...