The Walking Dead Season 4

[Ryan8bit]

Remember, he was willing to hand Michonne over to the Governor, knowing that was a death sentence, only to protect his own interests. At least Carol was dealing with a genuine threat to the entire prison community (if allowed to turn / get loose), as opposed to Rick, who tried to place a non-threat's head on the chopping block.

While I agree that Rick has been somewhat hypocritical and caring largely about just his group's interests, I don't agree with the above.

He seriously questioned the handing over of Michonne, enough so that he ended up discussing it with others to try and dissuade himself from doing it. There was a lot of internal moral conflict that we saw there, and we don't get that from Carol until after she killed Karen and David. She was a little bit more impulsive where Rick gave things a lot more thought. Both methods have their drawbacks, and the two aren't strictly impulsive or reserved.

I disagree that either of them has any kind of moral high ground or that Carol's interests extend much further beyond her group.

 

[kitik]

Wow, that is a strong contender for my favorite TWD episode of all time. I don't have a list, so who knows where it would really rank, but it is unquestionably up there.

Brilliant episode, and they were really left with no choice regarding Lizzie. Leaving her to the walkers or starvation would have been cruel and inhumane. Let alone the chance that she might survive and kill other survivors who might find her.

And Tyreese seemed like he was on the verge of doing something bad to Carol, but he showed restraint because of the situation with the girls. Had he found out about Carol while he was at the prison, there was a good chance he would not have restrained himself.

We'll never know how Tyrese would have reacted had he found out at a different time (though there's certainly still a chance he'd end up at forgiveness, because her eally has been portrayed as a stand-up guy). But imaginary situations aside, for me Carol really earned her forgiveness in this episode. I've been "against" Carol since she killed 2 innocent people at the prison, but her actions last night were so strong, performing the most insanely difficult of impossible tasks imaginable, that she earned a bit of a free pass on anything else.

As for Rick's reaction to meeting up with Carol again, I would imagine that he would be more than fine with following Tyrese's lead. If Tyrese says "we're good", that should be enough for Rick and everyone else. Not to mention the fact that she'll be holding Judith when Rick sees her. So I expect the very definition of "welcoming her back with open arms".

 

[Mr. Adventure]

IMO - very well written episode, but VERY f**ked up situation. I really hope the two child actresses have good heads on their shoulders because (and yes, it may be because I'm a lot older now myself) that's very adult/intense/complex subject matter, and not something I'd want to expose a young person to; even as a fantasy.)

I thought from a story and character perspective it was well presented and handled, but still - REALLY f**ked up.

They seemed pretty level headed on Talking Dead.

 

[shivkala]

The leader would be a better analogy, as I meant more the belief that death is a transition to something else (usually better). However, as you point out, Lizzie was not willing to go through that transition herself, for the most part, except when she was near the railway walker.

I wonder if Mika's death was at least in part due to her stopping Lizzie from letting the Walker bite her. Maybe Lizzie felt brave enough at that moment and could not summon the courage. Or maybe, while she knows any death will cause it, Lizzie herself wanted to die by walker bite/infection and was hoping Mika would bite her after she turned.

Since the comic is something else, entirely, it's times like these I wish The Walking Dead had more related media. I know about the video game, but I think there is so much potential in the characters, it would be interesting to see Lizzie and Mika prior to this season. Was Lizzie always like this, or was it a result of the zombie apocalypse and something as traumatic as seeing her mother die/turn? We get the sense that she's this way when we first meet her and her father's death only seems to exacerbate it. What made these two girls the way they were?

 

[publiusr]

There is a part of me that felt Lizzie should have been allowed to turn--no head shot as I expect. She would have been less a threat to other passers by---but on the off chance she was actually on to something--left in the house.

It seems to be what she always wanted. I think she misunderstood what carol was saying to her at the table, about changing. Her mind was that different.

I think the fire may have been from the still...

 

[kitik]

Unless we get a different explanation for the fire in the next 2 episodes, I think we have to assume that the fire was the one Daryl and Beth set.

 

[selina]

^ But where would all the Walkers come from? They looked really burned. I assumed that they must have been in the fire (maybe when they were still alive).

 

[sojourner]

They were attracted by the fire, then once it went out they moved on.

 

[Velocity]

There is a part of me that felt Lizzie should have been allowed to turn--no head shot as I expect. She would have been less a threat to other passers by---but on the off chance she was actually on to something--left in the house.

It seems to be what she always wanted. I think she misunderstood what carol was saying to her at the table, about changing. Her mind was that different.

I think the fire may have been from the still...

If she wanted to turn into a walker, why did she run away from the crispy critters and why did she appear afraid of the walker who dived out of the house when she was holding Judith? When they were discussing heading to Terminus she asked if there would be other kids there. She called that walker she was "playing" with her friend. She was a kid with a kid's simple viewpoint and needs. AND a killer inclination, unfortunately.

 

[Mojochi]

Maybe I'm a heartless bastard or something, but I don't understand why TWD has in several occasions NOT killed/stopped random zombies? Sure, I understand that they left the ones outside the prison to stumble around as a bit of camouflage, but why not go back and kill that zombie collapsed on the track in this episode? They were once people, and now they are not. They are a menace to anyone coming across them. Carl not killing one led (although not his fault) to Dale getting killed.

Carl's situation in that episode was an individual growing pains kind of thing

I think the premise is that they spare walkers on a general basis, because it is a chore to slaughter them, a chore on their spirit, to day after day slaughter what are essentially people

You can't kill them all one by one. Why would you ever want to even try? It saves a little sanity to let them slide once in a while. Let it go, unless it matters in some way. At least that's how I'm taking it

 

[Trekker4747]

One question: Did Tyreese carry Judith on his back when they left the house at the end of the episode? He had something on his back but I couldn't see what it was. And neither of them were carrying Judith on their arms.

They sort-of covered this in Talking Dead and I noticed it in the episode. Tyrese has Judith in the backpack bjorn as they walk down the tracks. It's a pretty good-sized device and there may have been blankets and such making it harder to see her.

On not killing the train-track walker. It could just be a case of not wanting to kill unless you have to. It's not a threat and, really, you deal with death so much it's probably a *relief* to not have to do it.

 

[bbjeg]

I was a bit surprised that Carol and Tyreese didn't allow Lizzy to watch her sister turn. Lizzy might have finally understood that the old Mika was gone for good and that zombies don't have a personality - or a brain function for that matter, except for the need to eat. Watching zombie Mika could have been Lizzy's wake up call. The whole situation reminded my of Hershal. Back on the farm he thought, too, that his wife was still "there" somehow and that zombies would just be different. But in the end he understood. Since Carol was also at the farm, I wondered why she didn't explain the situation to Lizzy more explicitly...

I think Lizzie just had processing issues. When she said (or something along the lines of) "They just want us to be like them", I realized her understanding of zombies were they're just a different species, not an abomination.

One question: Did Tyreese carry Judith on his back when they left the house at the end of the episode? He had something on his back but I couldn't see what it was. And neither of them were carrying Judith on their arms.

I think she was her on Carol's back.

 

[Mojochi]

I think the point is that Lizzie was troubled, & not incapable of recovery or at least stabilization, but that Carol & Tyrese are in no condition to be able to provide that, and that there were alternatives to what they did, but that all of them would have made survival either impossible or incredibly difficult

The theme we seem to be touching on is if something or someone is a liability, there may come a time you must rid yourself of it or them for the sake of survival. A little psycho girl that would require constant supervision falls plainly into that category

A child with psychological disorder is a life devalued in the primal world

 

[Trekker4747]

It was really an f'd up situation but what else could they do? There was no way they could ever trust her again she was a danger to them, to Judith and to anyone else she'd be around. They've not the time or resources to give her the intensive counseling and help she needed. (It seems that she's always had "issues" judging from the "look at the flowers" thing and maybe she was having them treated pre-ZA but medications and such are more scarce now.)

So there's no way they can trust her ever again, kid is obviously screwed up, and leaving her abandoned would probably, in a way, just be more inhumane.

But, man, Jesus. It's still fucked up. This was just a powerful episode when you realize everything that happened here.

 

[Mojochi]

Right. I'm not saying they made the wrong choice. I'm saying there were other choices. They're maybe only a week or so from Terminus (Possibly) where they could've at least had more people to help watch Lizzie. Until then they could have disarmed her, & someone kept a constant eye on her by taking sleep shifts (Which they'll likely have to do on the road alone anyhow). But by no means is that a full proof plan nor one that is without risk to everyone else's safety

The more optimal choice is what they did. Is it the moral choice? In their world... I don't really know

 

[kitik]

Right. I'm not saying they made the wrong choice. I'm saying there were other choices. They're maybe only a week or so from Terminus (Possibly) where they could've at least had more people to help watch Lizzie. Until then they could have disarmed her, & someone kept a constant eye on her by taking sleep shifts

Did you miss the conversation at the table where Tyrese and Carol agreed "she can never be around other people"? The absolute last choice for them would have been to take her to Terminus (which we don't even know if it even exists, let alone is remotely safe for them or Lizzie or anyone else).

 

[kitik]

On not killing the train-track walker. It could just be a case of not wanting to kill unless you have to. It's not a threat and, really, you deal with death so much it's probably a *relief* to not have to do it.

And perhaps leaving that walker on the tracks was done out of respect for Lizzie. Just because they killed her doesn't mean they didn't love and care about her. Leaving the walker alone on the tracks may have been a little going-away sign of respect for Lizzie, a bit of a "living" memorial to her. (Remember, she was not evil, and she did not mean to hurt her sister or anyone else, she simply did not understand the world she was in.)

 

[Trekker4747]

Yeah, we don't know how far away Terminus is or what resources they have when it comes to dealing with mentally handicapped people like Lizzie was. Sort of going back to the situation with the kid they "saved" in Season 2 and then debated with what to do with him next. No one felt comfortable with him being around, not knowing what he was capable of or if he'd escape and bring others back, and keeping an eye on him 24/7 was just impractical.

They had mostly seemed to settle on the idea of dropping him off somewhere unknown but even that had problems, holes and issues considering he seemed to know who Maggie was and then potentially where the farm is. Shane stepped up and did something but it was an issue to him, and an issue with Dale to kill Randal (the kid.)

Kind of the same thing here. Doing anything with her just wasn't practical and they didn't know how to "help" her. Again, did they make the "right" choice. Certainly not. Did they have other choices? Surely, yes.

It was a fucked-up situation all around.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Whoa, I knew Lizzie was going to be trouble eventually, but that was terrible. I can't believe she killed her little sister like that. This episode was as heartbreaking as seeing Sophia come out of the barn. Tyreese and Carol really were left with no other choice but to kill her under the circumstances. That level of mental illness is difficult enough to deal with in civilization, let alone in an uncivilized wilderness (and it seems that Lizzie was "messed up" before the ZA-- that counting flowers exercise must have been something they learned from a social worker or psychiatrist). And given her morbid attraction to the Walkers and her meltdown when Carol killed her "friend," she would not only be a constant threat to others, but could only look forward to a life of torment.

That image of Lizzie standing there with blood on her hands is haunting. Thank goodness the baby is okay.

 

[Reverend]

The leader would be a better analogy, as I meant more the belief that death is a transition to something else (usually better). However, as you point out, Lizzie was not willing to go through that transition herself, for the most part, except when she was near the railway walker.

I wonder if Mika's death was at least in part due to her stopping Lizzie from letting the Walker bite her. Maybe Lizzie felt brave enough at that moment and could not summon the courage. Or maybe, while she knows any death will cause it, Lizzie herself wanted to die by walker bite/infection and was hoping Mika would bite her after she turned.

I think it had more to do with her talk with Carol. Clearly she took away from that something entirely different than what Carol intended.

As for the walker on the tracks: dangling one's foot over a cliff isn't the same thing as intended to jump. The common theme with all of her interactions with the walkers is that she's playing with them like pets, not friends as equals.

Look how she reacts when she's suddenly not in control, like when the walker goes for them them outside on the porch, or when the burnt herd turns up. If she's not in control (in her head at least) or not being understood, she's in a borderline panic. The way I see it, this is her coping mechanism for feeling powerless.

Since the comic is something else, entirely, it's times like these I wish The Walking Dead had more related media. I know about the video game, but I think there is so much potential in the characters, it would be interesting to see Lizzie and Mika prior to this season. Was Lizzie always like this, or was it a result of the zombie apocalypse and something as traumatic as seeing her mother die/turn? We get the sense that she's this way when we first meet her and her father's death only seems to exacerbate it. What made these two girls the way they were?

What makes anyone mentally ill? Usually a combination of heredity and environment, just like anything else. In this case looking at the interaction between the two girls it's clear she'd probably had some emotional issues before everything happened. Doesn't really matter what the specific trigger was because if anything is going to send an emotionally unstable person over the edge, it's the dead coming back to life and eating people.