The Walking Dead Season 4

[DarthTom]

I suppose you could argue there has been a gradual change, but there's clearly a difference between this season and last, so I would have liked to see exactly what caused that difference.

Carol hasn't been the same since Lori's death and being trapped in the tombs. In fact if you recall she was operating on zombie's to practice a c-section for Judith's birth - so she had already started that trip around the bend for a while.

 

[Trekker4747]

I suppose you could argue there has been a gradual change, but there's clearly a difference between this season and last, so I would have liked to see exactly what caused that difference.

Carol hasn't been the same since Lori's death and being trapped in the tombs. In fact if you recall she was operating on zombie's to practice a c-section for Judith's birth - so she had already started that trip around the bend for a while.

There's a big difference between using a zombie as a cadaver for an impending surgery and killing two alive people and burning their bodies.

 

[Pavonis]

Was what Carol did really that "dark"? She was trying to prevent a plague. She failed, but stopping it early was a good idea. She should've talked to others about it, but then she has seen how the group will talk in circles about difficult choices (recall season 2, and the unending discussion about whether to kill their prisoner), so doing something unilaterally probably seemed to be the smarter choice when time was short.

At any rate, I don't think there's a necessarily a "trigger" for Carol's behavior, just a slow and steady progression towards cold, logical decision-making.

 

[Enterprise is Great]

She did tell Andrea to sleep with the Governor and kill him while he slept. Andrea didn't and wound up dead at the Governor's hands. I'm sure that affected her enough fror her to do what she did this season.

 

[Trekker4747]

Was what Carol did really that "dark"? She was trying to prevent a plague.

That's why the people were contained in A-Block/Death Row. To prevent the spread of the illness.

And yes what she did was dark considering she killed two living people not posing a meaningful threat. What she did with the bodies is another discussion, but she still killed to living/non-walker people who were contained. That's pretty damn dark.

Along another line... It's a common TV/movie trope to do this but covering your mouth/nose with a mask or cloth doesn't do anything to protect the wearer. If you can breathe through it you can breathe in germs/viruses/bacteria given that those things are aerosolized in air molecules which your mask is porous too. Wearing mask protects OTHERS from YOUR germs, coughs, spittle because the mask can contain those things (aerosolized germs and such being much more contained just off the mouth than in open air.)

So, really, everyone wearing a covering in the episode isn't doing themselves too much good. No harm, sure, (and it's is SOME protection from flying spittle/blood) but it's not a 100% defense from germs and viruses in the air.

Is it me or did this episode step down the aggressiveness of the virus? In the first episode Patrick goes from "not feeling well" to cough up blood and dying within a few hours. Right now it seems everyone is sort of managing the virus a bit better.

 

[PKerr]

Was what Carol did really that "dark"? She was trying to prevent a plague.

That's why the people were contained in A-Block/Death Row. To prevent the spread of the illness.

And yes what she did was dark considering she killed two living people not posing a meaningful threat. What she did with the bodies is another discussion, but she still killed to living/non-walker people who were contained. That's pretty damn dark.

Along another line... It's a common TV/movie trope to do this but covering your mouth/nose with a mask or cloth doesn't do anything to protect the wearer. If you can breathe through it you can breathe in germs/viruses/bacteria given that those things are aerosolized in air molecules which your mask is porous too. Wearing mask protects OTHERS from YOUR germs, coughs, spittle because the mask can contain those things (aerosolized germs and such being much more contained just off the mouth than in open air.)

So, really, everyone wearing a covering in the episode isn't doing themselves too much good. No harm, sure, (and it's is SOME protection from flying spittle/blood) but it's not a 100% defense from germs and viruses in the air.

Is it me or did this episode step down the aggressiveness of the virus? In the first episode Patrick goes from "not feeling well" to cough up blood and dying within a few hours. Right now it seems everyone is sort of managing the virus a bit better.

Maybe Patrick was a sickly type person and it affected him quicker?

 

[DarthTom]

At any rate, I don't think there's a necessarily a "trigger" for Carol's behavior, just a slow and steady progression towards cold, logical decision-making.

We saw the same progression with Shane and that didn't end well. Albiet Shane was a little more around the bend by the end than Carol is currently. I wonder if she's headed down the path of, "logical decision-making," to outright paranoia as we saw with him?

 

[Pavonis]

OK, I guess since she admitted that she killed them, they must have still been alive at the time. At the end of the previous episode, it wasn't clear to me whether Karen and David were already dead, or had been killed. So, yeah, killing the living is generally a dark deed.

What would the old Rick, the Ricktator, have done before turning soft? Would he have preemptively killed Karen and David?

 

[Trekker4747]

God, Manson on Talking Dead was painful to watch.

 

[sojourner]

^Yeah, that was bad.

 

[dansigal]

What would the old Rick, the Ricktator, have done before turning soft? Would he have preemptively killed Karen and David?

Rick didn't preemptively kill any innocent people when he was around the bend, but he left plenty to die when he could have helped them because he didn't want to risk the group's safety, which is almost as bad. It's the reason I'm not too interested in this Carol plot line, it feels like a retread of Rick from last season, minus the dose of crazy.

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

Is he always like that? Sometimes I really wonder how they choose who gets invited here. I'd think whoever produces the show would think that a guy who rambles on in mumbles while possibly on something wouldn't be high on the list. By the end of the show they were all pretty much ignoring him (not that he seemed to notice).

As for the episode, quite liked it. Carol was the solid focus here, and her journey to its end (and possibly her end) will be fun to watch. Rick is back doing a little police work, and Tyrese gets his ape-shit moment much as his comic counterpart got.

I wonder how they'll be explaining the mega-herd though and if it will have lasting repercussions on the show. Obviously this herd has caused by many of the local ones merging (hinted as far back as the season three opener), which seems to be zombie behaviour dictated as much by simple physics as by anything else. But if that's the case, does that mean that the rest of the local area is relatively zombie-free? What happens when the mega-herd moves on? Will the show get boring again without free-range meat to carve up?

Mark

 

[DarthTom]

^^ Yea.

Manson on who he thinks Carol looks like.
Marilyn Manson: Activia! She looks like Jamie Lee Curtis.
Chris Hardwick: I’m glad you led that with Activia.
Manson on zombie defecation and censorship.
Marilyn Manson: According to your theory, which I’ve heard previously, that they don’t defecate. If they poop it would smell a lot like my bathroom.”
Chris Hardwick: I get that question all the time with Twitter people. Do zombies poop? Number one I don’t write the show. Number two is his microphone down?
Marilyn Manson: You put my mic out. You’re trying to censor me.
Manson on zombies eating probiotics.
Gale Anne Hurd: You want the walkers to eat probiotics?
Marilyn Manson: No, I’m just saying she looks like Jamie Lee Curtis. It’s like the salt and pepper hair. It made me think of Activia.
Manson on Daryl and Carol.
Marilyn Manson: Didn’t you guys always think that she was going to sleep with Daryl?
Chris Hardwick: Well, that’s still on the table, as far as I’m concerned.
Manson on Shane’s criminal ears.
Marilyn Manson: It’s strange, because I love that it’s a zombie show. It’s essentially about morality, and you’ve got Grimes who for the most part tried to do what he thought was right. But in a zombie-type situation, where there’s no rules, morality, it goes right back to basics. It’s almost biblical, where you have to react. And Rick’s made the mistake of trying to save other people’s children, and it affected him losing his wife. Then, you have Shane, who I like to call criminally eary, because his ear looks criminal. There’s an old study about the shape of people’s ears makes them criminal or not.
Chris Hardwick: We are deep diving today.

Manson on Rick’s symbolic hat.
Marilyn Manson: Rick really lost his mind. No, not his morals, but he lost it when he had to shoot Shane. Not as much when the wife died. Not as much when she died, because he couldn’t deal with it, so he put it in his son’s hands. And the hat was very symbolic.
Manson again on Rick’s symbolic hat.
Marilyn Manson: Him being the first character, and his hat being symbolic of him being a lawman. Like when you see a guy in a white coat you think, ‘Oh, he’s a doctor.’ You see somebody in a fireman’s outfit you think they’re a fireman. He and his hat, and then when he gives it to his son, the order shifted so people are starting to make their own decisions, but they need a leader.
Manson on Carol killing Karen and David.
Marilyn Manson: I think she’s trying to be judge and jury, while Rick is trying to be civil. And he’s more let’s all decide, but he fell apart. And so you’ve got someone like her, and she’s burning those bodies. She’s suddenly like a feminist Sufragette City burning bras. I don’t think it was personal.
Chris Hardwick: I don’t know if burning bras is the same as burning human beings alive.
Manson’s theories on why Carol killed Karen and David.
Marilyn Manson: No, but I think the recklessness of it. She was just making decisions on her own emotions. She’s mad about all the things in her life. Maybe, she hasn’t gotten laid in awhile. She could be menstruating. Who knows what’s going on?
Chris Hardwick: I’m not sure if I support those last two theories.
Manson on Tyreese just sitting in the car when the zombies were attacking.
Marilyn Manson: I thought it was a reverse of Training Day with Denzel Washington and Ethan Hawke. And he had to school him in the car with the PCP and what not. And he just sort of came through at the end. Ty was actually Ethan Hawke. They just flipped the script.
Chris Hardwick: I think everyone’s thinking that. Gale, is that why?
Gale Anne Hurd: You know what, absolutely. We watched Training Day right before we wrote the episode.
Manson on Rick getting a John Deere.
Marilyn Manson: Literally, like Rick’s a farmer. He should have one of those John Deeres and just drive their legs off. Then, they can’t walk.
Chris Hardwick: Yeah, you’re right. This show just suddenly doesn’t work for me anymore, because he doesn’t have a giant John Deere that he’s driven in the prison.

 

[Admiral2]

^^ Yea.

Manson on who he thinks Carol looks like.
Marilyn Manson: Activia! She looks like Jamie Lee Curtis.
Chris Hardwick: I’m glad you led that with Activia.
Manson on zombie defecation and censorship.
Marilyn Manson: According to your theory, which I’ve heard previously, that they don’t defecate. If they poop it would smell a lot like my bathroom.”
Chris Hardwick: I get that question all the time with Twitter people. Do zombies poop? Number one I don’t write the show. Number two is his microphone down?
Marilyn Manson: You put my mic out. You’re trying to censor me.
Manson on zombies eating probiotics.
Gale Anne Hurd: You want the walkers to eat probiotics?
Marilyn Manson: No, I’m just saying she looks like Jamie Lee Curtis. It’s like the salt and pepper hair. It made me think of Activia.
Manson on Daryl and Carol.
Marilyn Manson: Didn’t you guys always think that she was going to sleep with Daryl?
Chris Hardwick: Well, that’s still on the table, as far as I’m concerned.
Manson on Shane’s criminal ears.
Marilyn Manson: It’s strange, because I love that it’s a zombie show. It’s essentially about morality, and you’ve got Grimes who for the most part tried to do what he thought was right. But in a zombie-type situation, where there’s no rules, morality, it goes right back to basics. It’s almost biblical, where you have to react. And Rick’s made the mistake of trying to save other people’s children, and it affected him losing his wife. Then, you have Shane, who I like to call criminally eary, because his ear looks criminal. There’s an old study about the shape of people’s ears makes them criminal or not.
Chris Hardwick: We are deep diving today.

Manson on Rick’s symbolic hat.
Marilyn Manson: Rick really lost his mind. No, not his morals, but he lost it when he had to shoot Shane. Not as much when the wife died. Not as much when she died, because he couldn’t deal with it, so he put it in his son’s hands. And the hat was very symbolic.
Manson again on Rick’s symbolic hat.
Marilyn Manson: Him being the first character, and his hat being symbolic of him being a lawman. Like when you see a guy in a white coat you think, ‘Oh, he’s a doctor.’ You see somebody in a fireman’s outfit you think they’re a fireman. He and his hat, and then when he gives it to his son, the order shifted so people are starting to make their own decisions, but they need a leader.
Manson on Carol killing Karen and David.
Marilyn Manson: I think she’s trying to be judge and jury, while Rick is trying to be civil. And he’s more let’s all decide, but he fell apart. And so you’ve got someone like her, and she’s burning those bodies. She’s suddenly like a feminist Sufragette City burning bras. I don’t think it was personal.
Chris Hardwick: I don’t know if burning bras is the same as burning human beings alive.
Manson’s theories on why Carol killed Karen and David.
Marilyn Manson: No, but I think the recklessness of it. She was just making decisions on her own emotions. She’s mad about all the things in her life. Maybe, she hasn’t gotten laid in awhile. She could be menstruating. Who knows what’s going on?
Chris Hardwick: I’m not sure if I support those last two theories.
Manson on Tyreese just sitting in the car when the zombies were attacking.
Marilyn Manson: I thought it was a reverse of Training Day with Denzel Washington and Ethan Hawke. And he had to school him in the car with the PCP and what not. And he just sort of came through at the end. Ty was actually Ethan Hawke. They just flipped the script.
Chris Hardwick: I think everyone’s thinking that. Gale, is that why?
Gale Anne Hurd: You know what, absolutely. We watched Training Day right before we wrote the episode.
Manson on Rick getting a John Deere.
Marilyn Manson: Literally, like Rick’s a farmer. He should have one of those John Deeres and just drive their legs off. Then, they can’t walk.
Chris Hardwick: Yeah, you’re right. This show just suddenly doesn’t work for me anymore, because he doesn’t have a giant John Deere that he’s driven in the prison.

That was scary and hilarious to watch. They never should have dug him out of his grave...

 

[sojourner]

It's actually a lot more coherent to read than it was when he was saying it.

 

[Jax]

Carol you need to go bye bye now am sick of her, shes gone way over the deep side of the looney bin. So many of the characters have loss their basic humanity I find it hard to relate to them or even care about them and season 4 overall feels a little meh at the moment.

 

[wissaboo]

There has always been a dialogue in the show between characters who think the only way to survive is to do whatever it takes and ignore any past rules of society, and characters who think they need to keep the rules of civilization unchanged in order to remain human. This goes back all the way to Shane.

 

[dansigal]

There has always been a dialogue in the show between characters who think the only way to survive is to do whatever it takes and ignore any past rules of society, and characters who think they need to keep the rules of civilization unchanged in order to remain human. This goes back all the way to Shane.

Correct. Why do I want to watch the same conversation again and again?

 

[Pavonis]

^Because the conversations are different. Will Carol go down the same route as Shane? Impossible. She has different motivations and goals than Shane did. So we watch to see how things will be different.

 

[wissaboo]

^Because the conversations are different. Will Carol go down the same route as Shane? Impossible. She has different motivations and goals than Shane did. So we watch to see how things will be different.

Or does it matter at all which side of the argument you are on? Dale was definitely the other side of the argument and he ended up just as dead.