Spoilers The Timeless Children grade and discussion thread

[Sparky]

this episode introduced cool new Cybermen only to end them 50 minutes later.

The episode didn't end them, the Master left the death particle on purpose, and he had an escape plan in place in the event things didn't go his way. In the shot where the button on the bomb is pressed you can hear The Master say something to the Cybermen along the lines of "go through there, now!" They most definitely escaped, and I'm betting they'll be back.
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[Emperor-Tiberius]

I will say this, again: I far prefer the Hybrid arc to this. At least Moffat didn't outright say he left because of that.

Its still a shitty arc, don't get me wrong. But I can live with it as yet another concept/retcon that didn't work. This TImeless Child thing.... "too much, man."

 

[Qonundrum]

The Doctor has unlocked the infinite lives hack...

Does this mean that the Doctor's Daughter is similarly immortal? How about Hand Doctor in Rose's universe?

Just wait until she flies like Cybermen without jetpacks, or Mary Poppins, when fly-mode collision-detection are disabled.

The episode doesn't list Ritu Arya or Gat in the credits. IMDB lists her in "archive footage" along with all the other people in the flashback.

You could make your own if you have a classic Cyberman, plus the most recent version. Just swap heads

I'm giving episode 10 a 10. I always loved the idea behind the Cartmel Masterplan. This isn't that per-se, but it has the epic scale of it. I could care less if Hartnell wasn't the first, but he thought he was, so hes still the "definite article" you might say.

It definitely gives Big Finish a shit-ton of stuff to work with.

At least the Timeless Child actually turned out to be something, unlike a certain hybrid.

The best part, very little needs to change going forward, except the Doc might have more memories and experiences to draw from if she/he remembers everything. That may not happen right away, or even ever.

Not just Cartmel, an episode from the original season 23 was going to have Gallifrey and its (possible) destruction. Of which there was a furore over details so it got scrapped. https://forums.digitalspy.com/discussion/2060583/the-lost-season-23-according-to-ian-levine and https://www.liquisearch.com/list_of...so_submitted_for_original_season_23/gallifrey P&J Baker would write a story based on the outline Eric himself wrote, involving the planet's destruction. JNT would not want the destruction to happen anymore than he wanted the show to end after "Trial" via a cliffhanger that would easily become a bookend for the show. JNT did not want the Trial theme, preferring the original stories as a lot of work was done, but caved. Saward would then try to end his trial in a way that would kill the show for good.

The Masterplan idea I wasn't lukewarm on. Silver Nemesis wanted to portray the Doctor as a god, which was vetoed. Chibnall's Masterplan was one step away from doing just that. What it's done, albeit for not the wrong reasons, is to move the goalposts regarding origins, into something that is increasingly convoluted, which will move them yet again. Partly because they were moved before, only I think Chibs put more thought into it than a one-liner to explain it but anyone would have to after decades of cultivated buildup. The show started with loose continuity and then later showrunners made a resolute decision. Now it feels like a diluted, diminished return. 3 times 3 or 4 times now with Gallifrey being destroyed and brought back and/or moved to a cubby hole pocket universe, and back ,and destroyed again all within the last 10-15 years... that's a bit frequent for something so major. Like losing what one does after the wedding night and/or copious amounts of malt liquor, one can't really get the mystery back. And people don't always want more of it, odd but true.

So not just 10-15 years, the first notion of anything major was 1985 - and while information over its more intricate details is woolly, it probably would not have gone through had the original season 23 not been canceled. It is the sort of "big" thing to compete against American shows, though at the same time changing or removing the origins pretty much removes any remaining mystery. But fans in the 1960s and 1970s wanted more, hence tidbits with the Monk, War Chief, living forever barring accidents, home planet name revealed, numerous visits to the planet, dropping off a companion there to marry a guard... the mystery was already gone by "The Invasion of Time".

Also, @Trinity Gingerbread pointed out a cool idea above. It does imply an antihero status, or villain-turned-good.

I'm on the fence because both sides have for the most part compelling arguments.

Especially as any later showrunner can and possibly would use the same "what you were told is a lie" and there is zero reason the Master isn't doing one massive mindbleep on the Doctor to sell something heinous. They were rarely friends or frenemies, mostly enemies. Increasingly insane ones. Maybe Robert Holmes threw in a terminal limit for a good reason. Or conversely why he felt he needed to at all. But each showrunner has their own mindset, and not all of them are going to diddle with an origin story - no matter how easy it is to overwrite at this point, Gallifrey has no fixed point in time it seems.

Agreed, re: the Timeless One isn't "The Hybrid".

Jo Martin sadly won't be returning on screen, probably. Chibnall and Patel, who co-wrote the story, put a lot into her dialogue and role and it's a dreadful shame that she goes. At least Jodie's gotten better material, but Jo (for me) is easily the better incarnation from Chib's era so far.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

I would love it if all that we saw was fake news and Jo Martin actually did turn out to be the next Doctor.

 

[Jax]

The Hybrid will stand in....oh Galifrey already gone, never mind.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

The Hybrid will stand in....oh Galifrey already gone, never mind.

But... Gallifrey Falls No More?

(looks at episode climax)

Actually, no. Nevermind, false alarm.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Come to think of it...
The Hybrid turned out to be the Master/Cyberium at the end.

 

[Mr Awe]

Not my cup of tea. I gave it a 5.

For an episode that involved the last Cybermen attacking the last humans, it was very much a stand around an talk episode. Very talky. I notice Chibnall stories tend to do that. Big drama unfolding. But, too much talking. Yes, some is good. And there was some good dialog. But, too much of it was just there to draw out the suspense. Too much was the Master explaining things to the Doctor. All the while being interrupted to draw things out. A bit like a bad sitcom. It would've been better to structure the story so the Doctor somehow found this out on her own.

Laughed how the Cybermen were apparently confused by the maze of tents. Um, just raze the whole set of tents to the ground? Tents aren't effective shields against energy weapons. Or, if they want to convert the humans. Surround the tents and then have Cybermen go through knocking them all down. How they escaped the Cyber Carrier was a bit daft. First they establish that it's not a good idea to disguise themselves as Cybermen. They do it. The Cybermen detect it and know exactly what they're doing. But, oh, at the last minute he got called away.

Also, I'm not a fan of Gallifrey and Time Lords being destroyed. They were just brought back. I suppose this comes down to whether you like Gallifrey and the Time Lords or not. I do like them, so confirming they're all dead and destroyed was a negative for me.

So, plenty of story telling reasons this was not a good one.

Now, getting to the major revelations. I'm not a fan of the direction they're going in. This might be me growing up watching the classic series. But, Hartnell was the first and original. Troughton second. etc. And this was referenced multiple times through the classic and new series. With Morbius being the exception. We saw the Doctor learning to become the Doctor. Learning how to pilot the TARDIS. And, becoming better at both. This new "history" undermines that.

I'm sure there are some who didn't grow up with it or just aren't as bothered by it. But, for me, Chibnall tinkered with stuff that I'd rather he didn't.

 

[Mr Awe]

Um, to quote myself here: What?!

I'm not mad about canon. I'm mad because the show just made The Doctor into the Chosen One of his species. Hell, an entire species was created FROM her. Apparently, she WAS someone special, not just because she was smart and quirky, no! It all goes back to her!

I have to agree with this part. I don't like making the Doctor out to be so special and unique. It's more powerful if she is just a regular Time Lord who got tired of their apathy and set out to make a difference on her own without the super origins.

 

[Csalem]

I know this is a fools errand but is the the Doctor's timeline roughly as follows:

• Found as a child under a vortex on a planet
• Brought back to Gallifrey to be raised
• Falls of a cliff and reveals regeneration powers
• Experimented on until regeneration passed to Gallifreyans to create Timelords
• Flees Gallifrey in a Tardis that turns into a Police Phone Box and adopts the name the Doctor (Ruth and maybe others)
• Captured and brought back to Gallifrey
• Forced to regenerate back to a child
• Grows up to be William Hartnell, adopts the name Doctor and flees Gallifrey in a Tardis that turns in a Police Phone Box
• Classic and nuWho happens

 

[Mr Awe]

I don't think I see this one lasting. In my opinion, it's dramaturgical suicide to all but declare that the Doctor's past is, in fact, more infinite, open-ended, and interesting than their future, since the Doctor's future is the thing we're all tuning in to watch.

THIS! Exactly this! If you want to make the show more interesting and exciting, then you do it as the show moves forward. Write engaging stories that covers the ongoing adventures. Tinkering with the show's past isn't going to make it a better show going forward. Sure, there's a momentary, ohhhh, what's going on. But, it's not a recipe for better storytelling, which is the underlying problem.

To keep viewers coming back, you need engaging stories going forward. Make her an active participant in exciting adventures and mind-blowing mysteries. Renumbering the Doctors isn't going to do the trick.

 

[Mr Awe]

I expected the timeless child to be revealed to be The Master. Made more sense at the time. Though I saw or imagined – intentional or unintentional – repressed jealousy in his actions, as if he wished it was him too. Maybe it still can be him. He could even be Tecteun.

I wondered that too. That experimentation followed by repeated mind wipes drove him mad. Now that would've added to the show! Insight into the Master.

 

[Lonemagpie]

One thing I hope they never do is try to explain the source of the Timeless Child - because there's one fucking obvious and inevitable answer that's both both utterly predictable and yet utterly unbeatable, so either doing it or attempting to do something else would be a disappointment.

As it is they can settle for having given a lience to themselves and BF to throw out as many guest-star Doctors as they like...

 

[David cgc]

Also, I really freaking love the new regeneration effect.

That was something I wanted to note. It was the first time it looked “right” since “The End of Time,” and that was the best since “Parting of the Ways.” I thought the regeneration VFX in “Twice Upon a Time” was particularly weak, which was odd because the partial regenerations mostly looked really good in “The Doctor Falls.”

And since everyone regenerated lying down, it avoided the other frequent issue with the new regeneration effect, the actors underplaying it and looking like they’re getting measured for a suit, not like a firehose is being channeled out of their neck and arms.

 

[Sparky]

I wondered that too. That experimentation followed by repeated mind wipes drove him mad. Now that would've added to the show! Insight into the Master.

I really wanted them to reveal that the Master and the Doctor are the same person, they're both the Timeless Child.

I was hoping that during the scene in the matrix where the data was blocked, that the two of them together would sort of act as a key, and that the info revealed showed that they are the same person.

 

[kirk55555]

Except, his attitude towards the Doctor is puzzingly aloof. If this is the Master before Missy but after Simm, fine - I'd love it, because then Missy's "I knew him since he was a little girl" comment would come off as rudely funny - but we don't know so we go with the assumption he's post-Missy. And if he is, then both he and the Doctor should have adressed the Doctor's enormous attempt to rehabilitate him in series 10 - you know, that season's arc? Instead you have them exchanging platitudes, in exactly the same awkward situation as Moffat put the Doctor with Davros in series 9. Without aknowledging some actual history, there's no tension, just a lot of fidgeting between two actors who visibly don't know that said history (not that they should, because a good script could communicate that stuff for them). We should have seen the Doctor disappointed the Master's bad, and the Master should have remarked how he's no longer giving him any chance, like "she" did (meaning himself as Missy).

I agree with all of this, but I'm a bit kinder toward The Master's performance. He is my least favorite version of The Master, but as someone who considers Ainley the best Master, I can't really say that I'm against a campy, over the top version of The Master, I just don't like how this version is written.

I would love it if all that we saw was fake news and Jo Martin actually did turn out to be the next Doctor.

She was the only thing I liked about this season, but I personally still like the theory putting her between Troughton and Pertwee, with the CIA (which the Season 6B theory would have The Doctor working for) erasing The Doctor's mind as he becomes Pertwee to explain why the 13th Doctor doesn't remember her. It fits in the timeline with only one slight hiccup (the Jo Martin Doctor not knowing about the Sonic Screwdriver, even though the 2nd Doctor had one), but compared to Chibnall's crap in this episode that is really nothing to worry about.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

My thoughts:

Good ideas. Like that it pushes against the mythology while using obscure parts of it. However, the execution is lacking. The whole things feels undercooked. The Doctor lacks agency for most of it. The story happens to her instead of her making it happen.

Chibnall has something he wants to say about Doctor Who and the mythology but I'm not sure he knows how to articulate it or dramatize it well.

 

[jaime]

Before I continue, I want to apologize for my vulgarity earlier. I honestly didn't meant to sound this rude but my emotions over this wretched episode got the better of me. But that doesn't excuse me, so I want to apologize anyway.


I really love this line! So good and ominous. And instantly places the guilt on the Doctor.

But frak that! Lets have them exchange platitudes instead! Its so much easier for the casual viewer anyway!

But that was a joke! A bad joke, but one still. And hardly the infuriating rewrite of the character's core.

Not to copy the whole post, but I agree with all of it.

I think BF might have done something interesting with their Gallifrey series, and I want to listen to that series now, after this radically abhorent abomination misused the Time Lords again for little reason other than to project the Doctor with importance. Plus, this episode actually made me appreciate Hell Bent, which is in itself, insane. But, there you go.

In any case, until they actually retcon this thing, I will actively not buy both this and any series henceforth. Its almost like Peter Parker in Spiderman: One More Day, but worse.

Thanks for liking the line, tbh, I went and got an MA in Creative Writing; the BBC gave Chibnall his job. I feel that between those two things, I could definitely do a better job. XD

 

[jaime]

They served their purpose of generating a new action figure.

And were lovely and cheap. Raid the props store for the collars, glue on cyberbonces, whip out the dremel and a sharpie, jobs a goodun. Ten minutes with some filler and spray can, rip the doilies off, glue the handles back on and they will be ready for next time.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I know this is a fools errand but is the the Doctor's timeline roughly as follows:

• Found as a child under a vortex on a planet
• Brought back to Gallifrey to be raised
• Falls of a cliff and reveals regeneration powers
• Experimented on until regeneration passed to Gallifreyans to create Timelords
• Flees Gallifrey in a Tardis that turns into a Police Phone Box and adopts the name the Doctor (Ruth and maybe others)
• Captured and brought back to Gallifrey
• Forced to regenerate back to a child
• Grows up to be William Hartnell, adopts the name Doctor and flees Gallifrey in a Tardis that turns in a Police Phone Box
• Classic and nuWho happens

I wonder if it’s the same Tardis. The Tardis did say she stole him, she could’ve been rescuing the Doctor and took on the Police Box shape either to remind him of his past or because on some subconscious level the Doctor has vague memories of what happened. 12 had some confusion over what his gender was as a child.