Spoilers The Timeless Children grade and discussion thread
- Thread starter The Nth Doctor
- Start date
100 episodes including Revolution of the Daleks.
Verity Lambert said more or less the same things in a documentary for one of her era's DVD releases. Possibly 'The Romans', 'The Keys of Marinus', or 'The Beginning Box Set'. I don't recall which. Probably 'Romans'. The makers generally make it based on what they want, which is true for most shows after a certain point, since it's more interesting for them to do - if nothing else. Nobody has to like what's made. But they always hope a lot of people watch and like it, so there's clearly more going on than their own personal sandbox.
From Ridley Nyder and James Davros we have Dalek and followed by Daleks and Dalek 3.
You mean Dalek³, right?
Series 12 Overall review
Over all this was an interesting series, with many different plot lines and themes. Espionage, hidden truths and struggles with identity feature prominently. Each episode shows each of these aspects in varying degrees (even the poorly contrived Orphan 55). In some cases, there are plans within plans, and counter plans. Aside from these elements, there is character development, even if some of it is subdued. The Doctor's struggles with the destruction of Gallifrey by the Master, and what he reveals about the Timeless Child were done very well.
Graham, Ryan and Yas also get more time as they deal with the situations that come up, albeit not consistently. They all appear with Captain Jack, for instance, and their fears are examined in Can You Hear Me? But more time could have been spent with each of them. (But maybe more episodes would have a good idea too.) More about each of them below. The Espionage/secret agent theme was used to great effect. What was thought to be a one off in Spyfall was in fact a set up for the rest of the series.
Spycraft and keeping secrets, more with the hidden truths theme. The Doctor working in the background to defeat the Master's scheme, leads to her discovering her own hidden truth when she tries to counter the Judoon's intervention in Gloucester. (I still think Ruth is Season 6B, rather than pre-Hartnell, given the TARDIS is a Police Box. Occam's Razor) This leads to the finale where it's revealed that the Division had used the Timeless Child/Doctor as an agent. It is certainly most prominent there.
It also links with the memory wiping. The Doctor's memories, and also Lovelace and Noor (although it's still distasteful, especially with the latter). Moving on, secrets also appear in Praxeus, convoluted it may be, where Suki turns out to be an alien. Struggles with identity also appears through the series, being most prominent in Can You Hear Me? (as would befit an episode released during Mental Health Week), where most of the characters deal with their struggles in one way or another.
And of course, this thread leads to the climax in The Timeless Children, where the Doctor learns that she's the Timeless Child. It was a very good example of foreshadowing. I certainly like to know where this leads. Graham continues to like travelling with the Doctor, but as the series goes on he questions whether he wants to continue to travel with the Doctor. (Especially after that awkward talk with the Doctor about whether his cancer would come back. The same for Ryan, although he managed to take out that group of Cybermen.
He too was questioning whether he wanted to continue travelling with the Doctor. However, Yas is more certain she wants to continue travelling with the Doctor, as her travels have awoken the sense of adventure in her. Overall a better series than the previous one. 8.47/10.
Series 12 Overall review TLDR summary
An interesting series with different plot lines and themes. Every episode shows all those aspects. Plans within plans. Character development occurs. The Doctor's struggles were presented well. The 'fam' gets more time, but probably not enough. (Maybe 10 episodes aren't enough.) Espionage theme is prominent from Spyfall through the rest of the series. Spycraft and hidden truths. The Doctor works in the background to defeat the Master's scheme and later finds her own hidden truth with Ruth.
There is also Suki. There are also struggles with identity, especially in Can You Hear Me? and with the Timeless Child. Graham and Ryan probably won't continue travelling with the Doctor, but Yas would. A better series than the previous. 8.47/10.
Over all this was an interesting series, with many different plot lines and themes. Espionage, hidden truths and struggles with identity feature prominently. Each episode shows each of these aspects in varying degrees (even the poorly contrived Orphan 55). In some cases, there are plans within plans, and counter plans. Aside from these elements, there is character development, even if some of it is subdued. The Doctor's struggles with the destruction of Gallifrey by the Master, and what he reveals about the Timeless Child were done very well.
Graham, Ryan and Yas also get more time as they deal with the situations that come up, albeit not consistently. They all appear with Captain Jack, for instance, and their fears are examined in Can You Hear Me? But more time could have been spent with each of them. (But maybe more episodes would have a good idea too.) More about each of them below. The Espionage/secret agent theme was used to great effect. What was thought to be a one off in Spyfall was in fact a set up for the rest of the series.
Spycraft and keeping secrets, more with the hidden truths theme. The Doctor working in the background to defeat the Master's scheme, leads to her discovering her own hidden truth when she tries to counter the Judoon's intervention in Gloucester. (I still think Ruth is Season 6B, rather than pre-Hartnell, given the TARDIS is a Police Box. Occam's Razor) This leads to the finale where it's revealed that the Division had used the Timeless Child/Doctor as an agent. It is certainly most prominent there.
It also links with the memory wiping. The Doctor's memories, and also Lovelace and Noor (although it's still distasteful, especially with the latter). Moving on, secrets also appear in Praxeus, convoluted it may be, where Suki turns out to be an alien. Struggles with identity also appears through the series, being most prominent in Can You Hear Me? (as would befit an episode released during Mental Health Week), where most of the characters deal with their struggles in one way or another.
And of course, this thread leads to the climax in The Timeless Children, where the Doctor learns that she's the Timeless Child. It was a very good example of foreshadowing. I certainly like to know where this leads. Graham continues to like travelling with the Doctor, but as the series goes on he questions whether he wants to continue to travel with the Doctor. (Especially after that awkward talk with the Doctor about whether his cancer would come back. The same for Ryan, although he managed to take out that group of Cybermen.
He too was questioning whether he wanted to continue travelling with the Doctor. However, Yas is more certain she wants to continue travelling with the Doctor, as her travels have awoken the sense of adventure in her. Overall a better series than the previous one. 8.47/10.
Series 12 Overall review TLDR summary
An interesting series with different plot lines and themes. Every episode shows all those aspects. Plans within plans. Character development occurs. The Doctor's struggles were presented well. The 'fam' gets more time, but probably not enough. (Maybe 10 episodes aren't enough.) Espionage theme is prominent from Spyfall through the rest of the series. Spycraft and hidden truths. The Doctor works in the background to defeat the Master's scheme and later finds her own hidden truth with Ruth.
There is also Suki. There are also struggles with identity, especially in Can You Hear Me? and with the Timeless Child. Graham and Ryan probably won't continue travelling with the Doctor, but Yas would. A better series than the previous. 8.47/10.
A little late to the party, but I finally watched the episode today. I'm not sure I have anything new to add to the discussion, but I really didn't like anything about it. I'm not going to talk about the massive retcons since I'm sure everyone has their own thoughts on those. But there are a couple of points I have to vent about.
First, the Master. I didn't like Simm or Gomez in the role, but this was far worse. He has all the subtlety and nuance of a nuclear explosion but is somehow more painful. I'm not a fan of insane cackling villains, especially when they're trying to copy the Joker. I hated it with Moriarty on Sherlock, I hated it with the previous two Masters, but here they weren't even trying to disguise the fact that he's a Joker ripoff. They literally dressed him in a purple coat and had him do Joker dance moves at one point!
Secondly, this was the episode that finally made me realize I don't like 13 as a character. It has nothing to do with the Doctor being a woman before anyone brings that up. It's because she flies in the face of 12's dying request. Previous Doctor's have had their dark moments, but they usually get called out on them. I'm sorry, but there was no excuse for her not to press the button and end the threat of the Master and his army. If they come back (which they will) then Ko Sharma's sacrifice will have no meaning and everyone who dies will have the Doctor to blame. Whereas if she had done it, she would have detonated the bomb right in his face. And since he says he only believed for a moment that she would do it, he probably wouldn't have a way out. Instead, the Doctor leaves the old man to die, gives the enemy time to escape, and avoids having to sacrifice herself. Our hero, everybody.
How can we root for someone who in one scene is like, "I'll die in a heartbeat to do this." and then in the next scene goes, "Okay, you can die if you like."?
First, the Master. I didn't like Simm or Gomez in the role, but this was far worse. He has all the subtlety and nuance of a nuclear explosion but is somehow more painful. I'm not a fan of insane cackling villains, especially when they're trying to copy the Joker. I hated it with Moriarty on Sherlock, I hated it with the previous two Masters, but here they weren't even trying to disguise the fact that he's a Joker ripoff. They literally dressed him in a purple coat and had him do Joker dance moves at one point!
Secondly, this was the episode that finally made me realize I don't like 13 as a character. It has nothing to do with the Doctor being a woman before anyone brings that up. It's because she flies in the face of 12's dying request. Previous Doctor's have had their dark moments, but they usually get called out on them. I'm sorry, but there was no excuse for her not to press the button and end the threat of the Master and his army. If they come back (which they will) then Ko Sharma's sacrifice will have no meaning and everyone who dies will have the Doctor to blame. Whereas if she had done it, she would have detonated the bomb right in his face. And since he says he only believed for a moment that she would do it, he probably wouldn't have a way out. Instead, the Doctor leaves the old man to die, gives the enemy time to escape, and avoids having to sacrifice herself. Our hero, everybody.
How can we root for someone who in one scene is like, "I'll die in a heartbeat to do this." and then in the next scene goes, "Okay, you can die if you like."?
Well, the way it was written, she tried to do it, but just couldn’t.
He stepped in and she realized, it needed to be done.
And he had a compelling argument that she could do a whole lot more than him if she lived.
the other alternative would have been, to him taking her place without her consent before she could go through with it, because we cannot continue the show without her.
And taking that bit of agency away from her would be a huge issue since her lack of agency is already a big critique point for the rest of the story.
Or she needed to miraculously survive somehow which would leave open the return of the Master as well.
So the act would have less impact.
He stepped in and she realized, it needed to be done.
And he had a compelling argument that she could do a whole lot more than him if she lived.
the other alternative would have been, to him taking her place without her consent before she could go through with it, because we cannot continue the show without her.
And taking that bit of agency away from her would be a huge issue since her lack of agency is already a big critique point for the rest of the story.
Or she needed to miraculously survive somehow which would leave open the return of the Master as well.
So the act would have less impact.
The thing is, I failed to realize in my last comment here that, while the Doctor did have a good reason to retcon the ending of the Time War himself with 10 and War beside him, she didn't have one here to not press the button. When he destroyed Gallifrey, he did destroy billions of people, but they were all dead already in this case. She should've exploded the planet, and let the cliffhanger be if she survived that explosion or not. Or better yet, explosion, companions think she's dead, credits, post-credits scene of the Doctor held captive by the Judoon.
Its simple, but effective. But no, lets make the already deficient Doctor even more deficient by having no actual impact in the plot, at all.
Its simple, but effective. But no, lets make the already deficient Doctor even more deficient by having no actual impact in the plot, at all.
Perfect. The Judoon could have beamed her out at the last second. They are already shown to be able to infiltrate the TARDIS, so reaching Gallifrey through the boundary shouldn't be an issue. I mean, did we need those scenes of the Doctor leaving behind the tree TARDIS and walking to her own one just to get captured? Wouldn't it be much more dramatic to let the audience think she's going to find some alternative and then shock us by having her actually press the button?
I did up a 10% speed version of the Matrix scene, so you can see things better.
Great work! They really crammed in a lot of footage. It's just a shame the sequence went by too quickly to properly take it all in without resorting slowing it down. Even at 10% some of the images still went by a little too quickly.
Then:
"The Carmel Plan would have been Amazing."
Now:
"Suuuucks!"
"The Carmel Plan would have been Amazing."
Now:
"Suuuucks!"
I've been a fan since the 4th Doctor, and I've always thought the Cartmel Masterplan was dumb. I don't see how it contributes to what, to me, is the core of Doctor Who: Stuff goes wrong, Doctor shows up, Doctor fixes things, Doctor moves on. How does this or the Cartmel Masterplan really change that formula?
Having watched a marathon of a Disney series last week, this description also fits "Wander Over Yonder" to a "T"!
I love the implications of the Cartmel masterplan, in that the Doctor is more important than "just another Time Lord." But BF actually gave that quote a far better response, by not making the Doctor the Chosen One from whom all Time Lords derived, but that he is "a complicated time-space event" in himself. And he became that because he cared to help others in every way. And I love that.
Not this.
Not this.
This. It doesn’t unless the show is going to be about the Doctor discovering her past, which isn’t the show, as you said.
Narratively, when you reveal something like this in a story it should affect the present, but even in Timeless Child, The Doctor was all
I’m still me! So, what’s the impact other than fan discussion?In the long run, this revelation won’t mean or do much, I suspect.
But 13 did bring up Jodrell Bank and her fall from the dish when she regenerated from 4 to 5. I loved that they mentioned that but yeah Missy totally forgotten.
I didn't mind series 12 to be honest and I don't know what exactly people wanted.
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