The Three-Body Problem (Netflix)

[Christopher]

I would argue that Clarence is not the same character as Qiang.

Basically the same -- a schlubby but sharp-witted, Columbo-esque detective who's the main viewpoint character investigating the murders and the mystery behind them, and with the same surname and nickname. The context and details are changed, yes, but you could say the same of Holmes and Watson in Sherlock or Elementary, or of Bill Bixby's David Banner vis-a-vis the comics' Bruce Banner. He's obviously, recognizably a variation on the same character. That's how adaptations work. It doesn't have to be letter-precise to count.

I mean, it's quite possible that Clarence Shi's Chinese name is Shi Qiang, like how Benedict Wong's Cantonese name is Wong Hon-ban. If Shi Qiang had grown up in England instead of China, he would surely have adopted a Western given name. Regardless, it's clear that they chose "Clarence" because it bears something of a resemblance to "Qiang."

However, the story itself is "almost" entirely different, but designed to hit the main plot points to move the story forward.

You keep using the word "entirely." I do not think it means what you think it means.

Do you think The Magnificent Seven is "entirely different" from Seven Samurai? Adapting a story means changing it. This is a more international telling of the story, but I find it very recognizable as the same story as the novel. Its core ideas and plot beats are all there, and many of its crucial character beats are there even if they're assigned to different characters. I daresay it's closer to the novel than, say, Blade Runner is to Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?, and certainly a great deal closer than, say, the TV series FlashForward was to the novel.

I may not be remembering this correctly, but the name Trisolarans is the name Earth people call them--it doesn't matter what language that is in.

Of course it matters to the ear of the listener. I find "Trisolaran" a corny and cumbersome translation of San Ti Ren. So my personal preference is that San-Ti sounds better. "Trisolaran" is also inaccurate; San Ti Ren literally means "Three Body People," not "Three Sun People." And it should really be "Trisolarian" instead.

 

[FreezeC77]

Yeah, this is probably the most frequent criticism I read on line about this scene: technically well done, but it doesn't make much sense.

Spoiler

Not only did they risk slicing the storage containing the data, but it could be crushed by the tons of material on the ship. They were also very "lucky" that the ship crashed ashore. What if she sank in the middle of the canal? Should they have searched underwater, blocking one of the most important trade routes on the planet?

It worked because the script said so, but it strains suspension of incredulity a lot

Spoiler

I think Wade actually addressed that and said something saving humanity is more important than a canal.

But as to the destruction. Yea. I thought that watching it. How are you going to assure whatever has the information isn't destroyed in randomness? Either by the nanofibers slicing it apart of the explosions/damage from the ship's pieces.

 

[theenglish]

You keep using the word "entirely." I do not think it means what you think it means.

That's insulting--unless it was a Princess Bride reference and then "good one". I was being hyperbolic, which is something I do. I qualified it with the word "almost" because your original comment about the word demonstrated that you didn't get that's what I was doing.

Do you think The Magnificent Seven is "entirely different" from Seven Samurai? I daresay it's closer to the novel than, say, Blade Runner is to Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?

I think these are both good examples of the way in which this series adapted its source material.

 

[Christopher]

That's insulting--unless it was a Princess Bride reference and then "good one". I was being hyperbolic, which is something I do.

Of course it was a Princess Bride reference. You think I'd hit upon that exact phrasing by accident? I even looked it up to make sure I got the wording (mostly) right.

And the whole point is that, yes, it is grossly hyperbolic to the point of being incorrect. It is not even remotely close to "entirely" different; it isn't even halfway different. It has largely the same plot and concepts and many of the same scenes and conversations, with a fair amount of difference in the characters and settings. It's a hell of a lot closer to the book than a lot of adaptations.

 

[theenglish]

And the whole point is that, yes, it is grossly hyperbolic to the point of being incorrect. It is not even remotely close to "entirely" different; it isn't even halfway different. It has largely the same plot and concepts and many of the same scenes and conversations, with a fair amount of difference in the characters and settings. It's a hell of a lot closer to the book than a lot of adaptations.

We are just going to have to disagree here. It's no more the same plot than Into Darkness was to the Khan sage, or as you said, something like Blade Runner. A lot of the same elements are present but there isn't a lot of similarity in how the story moves from plot point A to B to C. The outline is there, but not the actual story. In the case of Blade Runner where the movie is great on its own or arguably better than the novel, that's praiseworthy. In this case, I have yet to make a judgment.

 

[Christopher]

It's no more the same plot than Into Darkness was to the Khan sage

That's an absurd comparison. STID had only a few elements in common with "Space Seed" or TWOK and otherwise told a new story with the same characters. This is the same story with new characters.

A lot of the same elements are present but there isn't a lot of similarity in how the story moves from plot point A to B to C. The outline is there, but not the actual story.

That's a contradiction in terms. For an adaptation, all you need is for the outline to be generally the same. The outline is the story; the rest is just how it's told.

And there's a lot more in common here than just the rough outline. The core narrative being told is pretty much identical. Ye Wenjie sees her father killed in the Cultural Revolution; she's a prisoner until she's assigned to the radio telescope project; she's contacted by the San-Ti and invites them despite the warning not to. The San-Ti send a fleet toward Earth that will arrive in 400 years, and they send a pair of entangled sophons ahead to communicate with their allies. Ye recruits Mike Evans to organize a fifth column, and he assembles the group using the Judgment Day as a base. In the present, the sophons disrupt scientific experiments and assassinate scientists to undermine progress, while Evans's group runs a VR game to recruit allies. The game is presented pretty much exactly the same way in both versions. Da Shi investigates the murders and gradually becomes aware of what's going on. A scientist main character is recruited by the fifth column and works with Da Shi and his bosses as an informant. This results in a battle and Ye's arrest. A scientist working on nanofiber is asked to manufacture enough of it to slice apart the Judgment Day to retrieve its secret data, and this leads to the discovery of the sophons and the San-Ti's plot. At least as far as I've gotten, it's exactly the same story aside from some of the character arcs, and aside from the order in which the narrative unfolds. None of the main concepts have been changed, though some have been omitted or simplified for length. Many specific scenes from the novel are recreated faithfully, as far as I recall.

The only real change is that the story is more international in its characters and focus, which is a natural and understandable change to make for a Western adaptation. If anything, it's a lot less Westernized than it might've been a decade or two ago. Back then, we might've seen a feature film version starring, say, Scarlett Johansson as the American scientist hero who gets drawn into the game and Daniel Craig as the grizzled policeman who uncovers the alien plot, dropping Ye Wenjie altogether and making Mike Evans the one who contacted the aliens from the Very Large Array in New Mexico.

 

[theenglish]

I will go back and take a look at your post when I've finished the series. I would say that Stephen King for one would disagree with your first paragraph.

 

[Christopher]

I would say that Stephen King for one would disagree with your first paragraph.

If you mean the "outline is the story" paragraph (my second, since I can't see what he'd object to in the first), I think you're willfully taking it out of context and ignoring the fact that I was talking about what defines an adaptation, not the original story itself. There have been countless adaptations of Stephen King stories, and many of them have taken significant liberties with the details. I doubt very much that he'd deny they constituted adaptations of his stories, since he wouldn't get paid for them if they weren't.

 

[theenglish]

If you mean the "outline is the story" paragraph (my second, since I can't see what he'd object to in the first), I think you're willfully taking it out of context and ignoring the fact that I was talking about what defines an adaptation, not the original story itself. There have been countless adaptations of Stephen King stories, and many of them have taken significant liberties with the details. I doubt very much that he'd deny they constituted adaptations of his stories, since he wouldn't get paid for them if they weren't.

I'm not denying this is an adaptation of the novel. Many adaptations of King novels only use the broad strokes of his novels as well--and many movies based on his work are just poor. The Shining as a movie stands out well on its own even though it misses the heart of the novel's story completely. Other movies, such as one of my favorites, Stand By Me, are very faithful to the novel. (Although none of that is relevant to our current discussion.)

 

[EyalM]

[/SPOILER]

Spoiler

I think Wade actually addressed that and said something saving humanity is more important than a canal.

But as to the destruction. Yea. I thought that watching it. How are you going to assure whatever has the information isn't destroyed in randomness? Either by the nanofibers slicing it apart of the explosions/damage from the ship's pieces.

Spoiler: How it happened in the book

In the book there is a whole discussion about how best to disable the ship, without giving the occupants time to erase the data.
They came to the conclusion, that magnetic media is relatively easy to recover, which is somewhat true in real life. So even if the wires cut the hard drive, or it was crushed, it would still be recoverable.
Ironically, the HD in the show is apparently alien tech (going by the absurd volume). So any pre assumptions about what would or wouldn't damage it go out the window...

 

[spinagogue]

"They're traveling here at enormous speeds."

0.01c is "enormous" for an advanced civilization? I know even (unmanned) V'ger 1 probably doesn't get within 5 orders of magnitude of even that. But even us regressing, potential-squandering humans could probably get a solar sail up there at 10% of lightspeed pretty much right now.

Just seems like a bad estimate of what would be a good speed for them to be traveling at.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

As the force due to solar light pressure is about 7.8 newtons per square kilometre of sail at 1 AU and decreases as the inverse square of distance from the light source (also true for lasers because of diffraction) and the mass of a sail is roughly proportional to its area (even for nanomaterials), it would take quite some time to accelerate to 0.01c (3,000 km/s or 3 million m/s or 3 billion mm/s) even if the Trisolarians are individually the size of a grain of rice and each spacecraft masses say 1,000 kg including sail. 7.8 N force on 1,000 kg yields an acceleration of 7.8 mm/s^2 (0.000795 of one g), so it would take 374 million seconds or roughly 12 years to reach 0.01c if the light pressure were constant. Correction for relativistic increase in inertial mass is negligible as (v/c)^2 is at most 0.001 here.

I can't do the integration to allow for decrease in radiation pressure with distance in my head, but I might do it on Wolfram Alpha tomorrow if I feel inclined.

If the San-Ti are tiny, I doubt they're building relatively very massive nukes to use Orion pulse propulsion. One might think it would be easier to destroy us using the technomagical Sophons, but seemingly not...

 

[theenglish]

In the book, I think the issue was one of acceleration and deceleration--but I could be remembering that incorrectly.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

In the book, I think the issue was one of acceleration and deceleration--but I could be remembering that incorrectly.

Well. those two are important if you want to go somewhere and stay when you arrive.

 

[Christopher]

"They're traveling here at enormous speeds."

0.01c is "enormous" for an advanced civilization? I know even (unmanned) V'ger 1 probably doesn't get within 5 orders of magnitude of even that. But even us regressing, potential-squandering humans could probably get a solar sail up there at 10% of lightspeed pretty much right now.

Just seems like a bad estimate of what would be a good speed for them to be traveling at.

It's enormous compared to anything in prior human experience, which I believe was the point. The characters want to emphasize the crisis, not downplay it.

Besides, one percent of lightspeed is enormous and is no mean feat. Ten percent is even more enormous, but that doesn't mean one percent is anything to sneeze at.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

The speed of the solar wind varies roughly between 350 and 700 km/s, so roughly 0.001c to 0.002c. Harness that and you have a free ride out to the termination shock at about 100 AU. Of course, the available momentum is tiny and again decreases as r^-2.

 

[spinagogue]

It's enormous compared to anything in prior human experience, which I believe was the point. The characters want to emphasize the crisis, not downplay it.

Besides, one percent of lightspeed is enormous and is no mean feat. Ten percent is even more enormous, but that doesn't mean one percent is anything to sneeze at.

The speed of the solar wind varies roughly between 350 and 700 km/s, so roughly 0.001c to 0.002c. Harness that and you have a free ride out to the termination shock at about 100 AU. Of course, the available momentum is tiny and again decreases as r^-2.

No yeah you're both right of course. I was wrong there.

 

[Christopher]

In the penultimate episode, it looks like they're starting to fold in some concepts from Book 2... and laying groundwork for ways to allow some of the season 1 cast to continue in a second season as the timeline advances, a problem Foundation also had to contend with. Although I don't recall how much of this was done in the books as well. I do remember the bit with the ant crawling on the tombstone, which was a whole big thing in the book that I thought was an interesting stylistic experiment but didn't quite work, at least not in translation.

One thing I wonder about:

Spoiler: The Dark Forest

As I recall, a big part of The Dark Forest was that the "Wallfacers" were given carte blanche to develop plans in the privacy of their own minds, not telling anyone what they were working toward, so that the sophons couldn't hear them. In a book, you can narrate a character's inner monologue and reveal what they're thinking even if they don't say it aloud to anyone, but how do you do that in television? Nobody seems to do voiceover narration anymore.

 

[David cgc]

One thing I wonder about:

Spoiler: The Dark Forest

As I recall, a big part of The Dark Forest was that the "Wallfacers" were given carte blanche to develop plans in the privacy of their own minds, not telling anyone what they were working toward, so that the sophons couldn't hear them. In a book, you can narrate a character's inner monologue and reveal what they're thinking even if they don't say it aloud to anyone, but how do you do that in television? Nobody seems to do voiceover narration anymore.

Spoiler: The Dark Forest

The way I remember it, we never saw anyone's interior monologue related to their plans, either. Our PoV was with Lou Ji, who didn't have any idea why the hell anyone thought he'd know how to foil an alien invasion and decided to just live large on having unlimited, unquestionable authority for lack of anything better to do (and engages in the most magnificently bizarre romance plot I've ever read; if that gets into the TV show, I'll binge the whole thing today). We heard about the other Wallfacers and their weird orders peripherally, but never found out what their plans were until their corresponding Wallbreakers publicly humiliated them by revealing their baroque and largely suicidal machinations. Even once Lou Ji figures out what his clue meant, it's not entirely clear what he's doing or why until late in the game, and then its a total surprise when he managed to set up the dead-man's switch right under the Sophons' noses.

 

[Skipper]

[/SPOILER]

Spoiler: How it happened in the book

In the book there is a whole discussion about how best to disable the ship, without giving the occupants time to erase the data.
They came to the conclusion, that magnetic media is relatively easy to recover, which is somewhat true in real life. So even if the wires cut the hard drive, or it was crushed, it would still be recoverable.
Ironically, the HD in the show is apparently alien tech (going by the absurd volume). So any pre assumptions about what would or wouldn't damage it go out the window...

Thank you. I have to say it's quite the assumption, considering you are betting on it the future of humanity...