"the thinking man's Star Trek" - Why?
- Thread starter Nacluv
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I dont think of DS9 as any more intelligent than TNG or TOS (miles more than VOY and ENT though). I think theres a lot of things in there that some people associate with intelligent drama: its darker, its got more character/story arcs and its even got some politics mixed in. Similiar to how people erroneously described 'Revenge of the Sith' as good simply because it was darker and had some blatant political stuff going on, DS9 is sometimes hailed as more intelligent because of whats in the show as opposed to how well it was done. Other shows didnt have those elements, but they still succeeded in their own style, and Id say (overall) TNG, TOS and DS9 are on par as far as being 'the intellectual one' goes.
Dont get me wrong, I loved DS9 and Im not applying this to all fans, and Im certainly not comparing it to ROTS in terms of quality.
Dont get me wrong, I loved DS9 and Im not applying this to all fans, and Im certainly not comparing it to ROTS in terms of quality.
I'm gonna get shot here but I'd compare it to TPM because of all the political groundwork.
What's a strategy soap opera? If you want to make up categories, fine, but they're meaningless if there's only one show that fits the category.
Game of Thrones has charcters plotting and using strategy. A chess game would be a far better metaphor than a soap opera.
And despite being set in the real world, they often involve plot twists that would be ludicrous in sci fi. Even Star Trek and GoT do try to adhere to their own internal logic.
Game of Thrones has charcters plotting and using strategy. A chess game would be a far better metaphor than a soap opera.
And despite being set in the real world, they often involve plot twists that would be ludicrous in sci fi. Even Star Trek and GoT do try to adhere to their own internal logic.
After 3 weeks, last night I finished my 3rd marathon of TNG and started watching some of DS9. I was surprised to discover that I don't remember having seen Emissary before but when it comes to both Past Prologue and A Man Alone, I think I saw them as a kid and also both of them two years ago when I was roaming arbitrary episodes of DS9, VOY and ENT.
I think tonight will start off with the Q episode because I believe I saw 6 or 5 episodes last night.
However I highly doubt that my opinion on it will change just because after I'll have seen the whole show in order instead of half the show in random order. I think some of the stories are really good and that it's a really fine show but I do not think I'll ever find it so personally appealing as TOS, and also TNG, are to me. I think I just have different standards and criterions for how I want Star Trek to be compared to others as well as what I can look for in other shows which is why I have easier appreciating it as a standalone show.
I think tonight will start off with the Q episode because I believe I saw 6 or 5 episodes last night.
However I highly doubt that my opinion on it will change just because after I'll have seen the whole show in order instead of half the show in random order. I think some of the stories are really good and that it's a really fine show but I do not think I'll ever find it so personally appealing as TOS, and also TNG, are to me. I think I just have different standards and criterions for how I want Star Trek to be compared to others as well as what I can look for in other shows which is why I have easier appreciating it as a standalone show.
DS9 is the one series I have trouble understanding people's dislike of. What's not to like.. it has everything the other series do well, plus good sized doses of their weaknesses (weaknesses which some enjoy). One of its huge strengths is how it fleshes out whole species and worlds we've seen much more briefly on the other series. Cardassia, Trill, Ferenginar, Bajor.. HUGE development with the histories and cultures explored in a way that alien of the week stuff just hasn't got the scope to do. It's an incredible contribution to the Star Trek universe.
Some of the characters can be pretty annoying before you get to know them. And Season 1 is pretty bad so that turns a lot of people off.
I speak as someone who used to dislike the show but love it now. It's hard to remember why I disliked it so much, but I think I sort of just grouped it in with the mediocrity of the other "Post TNG" treks. I also think major alien characters on DS9 often behave too human-like for my liking. I also think Avery Brooks is really not a good enough actor to be the main guy. Many, hell, most of the supporting actors on DS9 are better than him. But that's preference. Some people prefer overacting it seems. Terry Farrell annoys me for some reason. The rest of the major players are pretty awesome. Well, Cirroc Lofton sucks too but oh well. Now I sound racist because I dislike the two main black actors on the show!
Michael Dorn is greatness! So is Penny Johnson*! There. Close one. Phew..
*But I already knew that from The Larry Sanders Show
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DS9 is like what progressive rock is to music in general. DS9 is not designed for instant gratification, yes it bumbles along in the first two seasons but it becomes far more cohorent come season 3. Watching DS9 for the first time (or even rewatching it) requires some effort, but if you put in the effort you will be rewarded.
I can't compare TOS because I haven't seen it, but DS9 definitely has the greatest subtext, greater than TNG, VOY and ENT. For starters there's about a few dozen or so character relationships and interactions that are constantly evolving, then there is the whole Emissary/Prophets stuff, what the Founders get up to, the nature of the Jem'Hadar, the Bajoran Occupation and so on. It all raises so many questions and there are answers to most of them but it's from the story as a whole and not necessarily from the dialogue. So there's the massive amounts of subtext.
There is no doubt that DS9 is the most complex of all Star Trek series, complexity in itself means lots of subtext.
My point if you want something deep and thought-provoking, DS9 is the only series which really absorbs you in its world.
Wouldn't that make The Female Changeling Palpatine, and [GASP] Gul Dukhat Jar Jar Binks?
<BANG>
As to why some don't like it. The most common complaints I've seen is many were bored with the Bajoran Religion and Politics (I personally think that's a real plus for the early episodes, but, that doesn't seem to be a majority opinion amongst the folks posting here), and some folks didn't appreciate the move away from the "Utopia" of TNG and/or The War Arc
This is pretty much bang on the money. To me DS9's head and shoulders above even TNG.
And Prog Rock ? Nah...
The soap opera line is applicable due to the genre--more than any other--heavily investing in the long-running romance/drama arcs across months or years. Since other TV formats are broken up into seasons (usually the end of a storyline, too), when the romance/drama arc is adopted, and spans a season or more, the natural comparison is to the format which shaped the plot device--the soap. The same has been said of series like E/R, the horrid Grey's Anatomy and others, which--like DS9--had running romance plots.
And Prog Rock ? Nah...
Prog rock is only for people with taste, like DS9 is...
While it's not a perfect analogy, it's damn close.
One other thing to consider is that, like prog rock, it has a tendency to be a bit self-indulgent now and again. And some of the themes, deep as they are, are sometimes presented in a manner that's somewhat half-baked. But if you've got the patience for those minor shortcomings and the attention span for the myriad interwoven storylines, you'll find your patience rewarded with an epic masterpiece.
And Prog Rock ? Nah...
Prog rock is only for people with taste, like DS9 is...
Good taste or bad taste?
I agree. Because DS9 has a more complex plot and story arcs, some people call it more intelligent. But I don't think more complexity necessarily equates to more intelligence. It's just a different type of presentation.
I'm pretty much in agreement with all this here.
Star Trek, in it's original conception, was thought-provoking. Being thought-provoking was always an essential element of the franchise, from "The Cage" on.
As for the comparison to progressive rock, well, the version of "Echoes" on Meddle is one of my favorite songs ever. But on the other hand, the song "Emotional Rescue" totally rocks. I don't think any collection of 20th century music is complete without either of them. Ya dig?
And Prog Rock ? Nah...
Prog rock is only for people with taste, like DS9 is...
Good taste or bad taste?
Depends on the times, it was all the rage in the late sixties and early to mid seventies...
I'd say good taste because it is the one music form that has not yet descended into derivative bland pop slush or today's now uninspired rock 'n' roll.
I think on balance S1 of DSN is better than S1 of TNG.
The words "faint praise" come to mind.
On balance, S1 DS9 is clearly better than S1 TNG.
Battle Lines was the first DS9 episode that really grabbed me, and that was first season. I thought that episode was way better than most contemporary TNG.
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