The Romulus Question?

[Rahul]

I'm inclined to disagree. Two seperate Trek continuities really doesn't work. Part of the appeal of Star Trek is it's universe building. Basically it was the MCU before the MCU was the MCU.

The seperation to the Kelvin movies kinda' works, because it's an alternate timeline and all that. THough to be fair I would have preffered it if they were simple prequels, instead of prequel/sequel/reboots. But I doubt the Kelvinverse will continue beyond the Pine/Quinto-crew - these movies are defined by their characters, they don't have an interesting universe to play with. The universe is exactly the same old one.

I hope CBS and Paramount can find a way to work together on Trek. God, I hope Trek would be like Star Wars, where the entire property is under a single company (Lucasfilms), that can go to studios and television producers which are best for the property, not the property being a way to push the studio/streaming service/whatever.

The Romulus question has the benefit that - with all the timey-wimey-ness involved, and the Kelvin movies really being completely seperated from the prime universe, even in their "prime" parts (the USS Kelvin and Discovery contradict each other) - they could very easily go any way, and fans will accept it.

Romulus blowed up? Great, tv and movies even more connected. Romulus didn't blew up? Well, confirmation that the entirety of the Kelvin movies took place in their universe, and Nimoy-Spock really was "Old"-Quinto Spock.

It will be harder once both companies proclaim to do "prime" Trek again and contradict each other - say when Paramount does another Kirk/Spock movie, but with new actors and this time "definitely" set in prime and a prequel to TOS - and it contradicts Spock on DIS.
Then we will have a real problem with this franchise...

 

[F. King Daniel]

I'm so much more happy with TV and movie Trek being separate. I love Gotham and the World of DC movies, both would be creatively hamstrung if they were forced to coexist, ditto Legion and the X-Men movie universe. I'd prefer the forthcoming Starfleet Academy series was another separate continuity, so it can be Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Carol and the rest saving the galaxy between classes without worrying about it syncing up with TOS, Disco or Kelvin Trek except in the very broadest strokes that Smallville and Gotham did with their respective movie incarnations.

Although as far as I'm concerned, Trek already is there. Discovery is Prime Universe in name only, doing whatever it wants to the Trek mythos while pretending it's Prime because they're afraid a few old-timers will cancel their subscriptions otherwise.

 

[SPCTRE]

they'll change it as easily as they gave Spock a sister.

Spock always/never had a sister and Romulus was always fine/destroyed

easy/hard!

 

[F. King Daniel]

Spock always/never had a sister and Romulus was always fine/destroyed

easy/hard!

Where's that gif of the guy spazzing out from "Loud as a Whisper" when you need it?

 

[uniderth]

I have never seen an installment of the Star Trek franchise where Romulus was blown up. So it's still there. I don't know why people are saying it's blown up. Clearly, its still there, the center of an interstellar empire.

 

[The Wormhole]

I also agree with others on this thread that they could ignore it entirely if it's not important to story. Regardless of how much space is wiped off the map, if it's not important to story they need not mention it.

And if it does come up in the story (whether it's part of the story or just mentioned in passing) they should have the freedom to retcon it any way they want to that it makes plausible sense in a science fiction context. Since any version of ST to come out of CBS will "likely" be more heavily science fiction than the BR films, which are more science fantasy.

You do realize the executive producer of the Picard Series is one of Trek XI's co-writers/producers, right? In other words, someone who isn't going to feel inclined to disregard that movie. And since that movie states that Romulus in the Prime Universe was destroyed in 2387, that's going to be the state of things in The Picard Show.

 

[Relayer1]

No they’re still a couple years out in-Universe.

But at least one of the writers has said they were not allowed to contradict it since it’s part of the canon.

Up until recently they were neither allowed to contradict it nor reference it - it was canon but the novels were under a different license to the Bad Robot material.

I understand that that issue was recently resolved so the novels no longer needed to crawl in their chronological approach to the supernova.

Of course, they have other issues now...

 

[Tenacity]

You do realize the executive producer of the Picard Series is one of Trek XI's co-writers/producers, right? In other words, someone who isn't going to feel inclined to disregard that movie.

Why is that? Being attached to a former project doesn't mean they would consider themselves bound to that projects material.

 

[The Wormhole]

And yet, I find it unlikely Kurtzman is going to completely disregard a movie he worked on. Especially given all the Kelvin timeline elements he's already added to Disco.

 

[Bad Robot]

You do realize the executive producer of the Picard Series is one of Trek XI's co-writers/producers, right? In other words, someone who isn't going to feel inclined to disregard that movie. And since that movie states that Romulus in the Prime Universe was destroyed in 2387, that's going to be the state of things in The Picard Show.

You did read my entire post, right? Tuskin just said current evidence points to CBS not disregarding the movie (And most of what I wrote was in response to them allegedly not disregarding it).

Not disregarding it does not mean it's guaranteed to come up in their story, or even be mentioned in passing, if the story itself doesn't end up being related.

And yet, I find it unlikely Kurtzman is going to completely disregard a movie he worked on. Especially given all the Kelvin timeline elements he's already added to Disco.

So we're coming from a subjective place then, just to be clear: you find it unlikely. There were months of speculation very early on, if I recall, that the new series (Discovery) would be Kelvin-based because of Kurtzman's involvement. It seems unusual to assume someone would be "unaware" that he's the executive producer for STD, the Picard series and Star Trek: Everything Else under CBS just based on what I posted in this thread.

It has never automatically followed that CBS, in their ownership of ST, felt obligated to acknowledge what Paramount is doing in their sandbox just because both parties have worked with the same writer/producer. This is new. And I wasn't disagreeing with it if true.

 

[Tuskin38]

I have never seen an installment of the Star Trek franchise where Romulus was blown up. So it's still there. I don't know why people are saying it's blown up. Clearly, its still there, the center of an interstellar empire.

Don't be ignorant.

Star Trek doesn't exist in a vacuum. Things happen even if you don't see them.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Yeah, but Khan wasn’t supposed to be white too. The Kelvin writers ignored that.

As of this point we have no reason to think the Kelvin universe doesn’t count except that it’s an unfitting end to Romulus. But if the writers wrote a story where Romulus is still there safe and sound, nobody would really care too much it contradicted Kelvin. Any more than they care about differences between MacGuire Spider-Man, Garfield Spider-Man, and MU Spider-Man.

The writers will do whatever tells the story they want to tell.

 

[XCV330]

Yeah, but Khan wasn’t supposed to be white too. The Kelvin writers ignored that.

As of this point we have no reason to think the Kelvin universe doesn’t count except that it’s an unfitting end to Romulus. But if the writers wrote a story where Romulus is still there safe and sound, nobody would really care too much it contradicted Kelvin. Any more than they care about differences between MacGuire Spider-Man, Garfield Spider-Man, and MU Spider-Man.

The writers will do whatever tells the story they want to tell.

Obtuse. Khan was, judging from his name, not supposed to be Spanish either. You are indeed correct, writers from the 60's, 80's and early 2000's all failed to include Khan going into his lineage. Because he was an augment. He was made in a bottle.

James Bond was supposed to be English. He's been played by actors of Scottish, Irish, and Welsh descent as well. So what?

Acting choices rarely define the character. That has nothing to do with whether Romulus was destroyed. Nero and Spock both acknowledged that it had been.

 

[The Wormhole]

You did read my entire post, right?

I really didn't

 

[XCV330]

You did read my entire post, right? Tuskin just said current evidence points to CBS not disregarding the movie (And most of what I wrote was in response to them allegedly not disregarding it).

Not disregarding it does not mean it's guaranteed to come up in their story, or even be mentioned in passing, if the story itself doesn't end up being related.

So we're coming from a subjective place then, just to be clear: you find it unlikely. There were months of speculation very early on, if I recall, that the new series (Discovery) would be Kelvin-based because of Kurtzman's involvement. It seems unusual to assume someone would be "unaware" that he's the executive producer for STD, the Picard series and Star Trek: Everything Else under CBS just based on what I posted in this thread.

It has never automatically followed that CBS, in their ownership of ST, felt obligated to acknowledge what Paramount is doing in their sandbox just because both parties have worked with the same writer/producer. This is new. And I wasn't disagreeing with it if true.

There's a damned good reason to at least acknowledge both continuities. The property is split in ownership right now but that probably won't always be the case. Hell a bigger buyer could turn up and buy them BOTH out for the property if they really wanted to and both were willing to sell.

It makes sense to leave your profitable nearly 60 year old franchise as comprehensive as possible. Because the MBA's that are going to be handling those kind of decisions along with their corporate lawyers aren't going to be fans necessarily (they might be, and then it really gets odd), but they will have people go over it with a fine comb. Ignoring events in the '09 movie would be confusing to a lot of casual viewers who did watch that movie, since it was such a big part of the plot.

This isn't magically bringing Dan back to life on Roseanne. There's not a lot of love for Romulus, or clamor for it. Nothing is lost by acknowledging it has ceased to exist. As long as they don't re-film the few prime scenes from '09, there's no infringement. Those kind of discussions can be made behind closed doors with a handshake.

Amazon is rumored to be walking that fine line with its Tolkein series. It has the Tolkien family approval, and it won't be retreading the Lord of the Rings material that was in the Jackson movies, but it can't pretend none of it existed.

 

[Jedi_Master]

The destruction of Romulus should only be included if it is relevant to the development of one or more characters, or has a significant impact on the development of the overall plot.
Otherwise, any references to Romulus (throw-away, graphical, etc.) are unneeded.

 

[Rahul]

There's a damned good reason to at least acknowledge both continuities. The property is split in ownership right now but that probably won't always be the case. Hell a bigger buyer could turn up and buy them BOTH out for the property if they really wanted to and both were willing to sell.

It makes sense to leave your profitable nearly 60 year old franchise as comprehensive as possible. Because the MBA's that are going to be handling those kind of decisions along with their corporate lawyers aren't going to be fans necessarily (they might be, and then it really gets odd), but they will have people go over it with a fine comb. Ignoring events in the '09 movie would be confusing to a lot of casual viewers who did watch that movie, since it was such a big part of the plot.

This isn't magically bringing Dan back to life on Roseanne. There's not a lot of love for Romulus, or clamor for it. Nothing is lost by acknowledging it has ceased to exist. As long as they don't re-film the few prime scenes from '09, there's no infringement. Those kind of discussions can be made behind closed doors with a handshake.

Amazon is rumored to be walking that fine line with its Tolkein series. It has the Tolkien family approval, and it won't be retreading the Lord of the Rings material that was in the Jackson movies, but it can't pretend none of it existed.

The destruction of Romulus really, really wasn't a big part of ST09. It was a friggin' retroactively changed alternate future backstory. Nothing more.

The destruction of VULCAN on the other hand WAS a big deal in ST09 - and hell, DIS has already contradicted that, with Vulcan still being arund, merry and all, and not likely to blow up soon.

While there is not much "Love" for Romulus, there is actually hate for the destruction of Romulus - especially since it would be such a major event, having it happen off-screen with a side-remark really wouldn't do it any justice.

So yeah, unless they specifically want to tell the story of the fall-out of the destrution of Romulus - if they don't want to delve deep into that topic - they should just leave it alone and pretend it never happened, and completely forget about it. Like everyone that ever saw ST09 did.

 

[XCV330]

The destruction of Romulus really, really wasn't a big part of ST09. It was a friggin' retroactively changed alternate future backstory. Nothing more.

The destruction of VULCAN on the other hand WAS a big deal in ST09 - and hell, DIS has already contradicted that, with Vulcan still being arund, merry and all, and not likely to blow up soon.

While there is not much "Love" for Romulus, there is actually hate for the destruction of Romulus - especially since it would be such a major event, having it happen off-screen with a side-remark really wouldn't do it any justice.

So yeah, unless they specifically want to tell the story of the fall-out of the destrution of Romulus - if they don't want to delve deep into that topic - they should just leave it alone and pretend it never happened. Like everyone that ever saw ST09 did.

Vulcan is alive and well in DSC because it doesn't take place in the Kelvin Timeline. Why would it be missing? Romulus blowing up is the entire reason Nero and his fellow miners wind up in the past and preciptate the Kelvin Timeline. So yes, it's important to the plot.

"Don't tell me it didn't happen. It happened. I saw it happen." -Nero (kind of definitive.. I guess he could have used the word happened a few more times, of course) So yes. Romulus in prime timeline is gone.

So somehow I think you're wrong that everyone that watched '09 pretended it didn't happen. if you are using hyperbole to prove a point and I did not understand it, my apologies.

 

[Rahul]

Vulcan is alive and well in DSC because it doesn't take place in the Kelvin Timeline. Why would it be missing? Romulus blowing up is the entire reason Nero and his fellow miners wind up in the past and preciptate the Kelvin Timeline. So yes, it's important to the plot.

"Don't tell me it didn't happen. It happened. I saw it happen." -Nero (kind of definitive.. I guess he could have used the word happened a few more times, of course) So yes. Romulus in prime timeline is gone.

So somehow I think you're wrong that everyone that watched '09 pretended it didn't happen. if you are using hyperbole to prove a point and I did not understand it, my apologies.

Literally everyone that saw ST09 FORGOT that Romulus is gone. They don't "pretend" it - it's an event that in the reality of the movie never actually happened. "You're mad. Romulus is still out there". "It hasn't happened yet." Remember?

Yeah, you and I know it happened, in this timeline, but not in that one. But COME ON. This movie was made almost 10 years ago by now. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone outside hardcore nerdom (like us on a Trek-specific online forum) that is at least even aware of that ST09 was supposed to be an alternate timeline, and not just a normal prequel/reboot.

And pretending an event that was not just un-important, but never actually happened, only in another timeline, would leave a mark in audiences memory is really stretching it. As far as regular Trek viewers go, the last thing they saw of Romulus was in "Nemesis", everything after that is iffy at best.

 

[XCV330]

Literally everyone that saw ST09 FORGOT that Romulus is gone. They don't "pretend" it - it's an event that in the reality of the movie never actually happened. "You're mad. Romulus is still out there". "It hasn't happened yet." Remember?

Yeah, you and I know it happened, in this timeline, but not in that one. But COME ON. This movie was made almost 10 years ago by now. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone outside hardcore nerdom (like us on a Trek-specific online forum) that is at least even aware of that ST09 was supposed to be an alternate timeline, and not just a normal prequel/reboot.

And pretending an event that was not just un-important, but never actually happened, only in another timeline, would leave a mark in audiences memory is really stretching it. As far as regular Trek viewers go, the last thing they saw of Romulus was in "Nemesis", everything after that is iffy at best.

I'd be far more interested in wiping Nemesis out of continuity, than the destruction of Romulus in '09. It doesn't mean the end of the Romulan empire, necessarily. They could not mention it at all if they wanted, and it would not hurt anything in whatever ongoing story develops, and I think we'd both agree on that.