The Romulus Question?

[Rahul]

It's Schrödinger's Romulus now.
Both blow'ed up and not blowed up at the same time. Why?

• on the one hand, the destruction of Romulus was part of Old Spocks' backstory, and old Spock was clearly intended to be "classic" Spock, so his backstory should theoretically be from the same "prime" universe (even though other things like red matter, the Narada and Nero don't match up as well)
• On the other hand what actually happened was: Romulus was blown up during the backstory in an alternate future that now can't happen anymore in the reality of an alternate universe. That shit is SO vague, I'd get everyone - including the fans and the writers - if they forgot that ever happened. Hell, I needed to be reminded that it ever happened - and I breatheTrek.

Here is how I would handle it:
If the writers of the Picard show have a story that clearly depends on Romulus being blown up (say, it heavily deals with the fall-out of this event), I say include it as a backstory. If NOT - if they want to tell a completely independant story, like Picard dealing with a personal event - leave it out. It's way too massive an event - the complete anhilation of one of the three original TOS power players - it would simply do a GREAT disservice to have that as a small background line "Oh btw Romulus blew'ed up, but nothing came from it and we're not dealing with any of it here" and then never show it again.

So I say: Either really deal with it on a story and character level and delve into all the consequences. Or leave it out completely and pretend it never happened.

But DON'T wing it.
Don't have it be a small, unimportant background event in an otherwise completely seperated story. If they really want Romulus to have been destroyed, it has way too wide and big implications to be just a little nitpick in the background. Either really put the focus on it. Or if they don't want to adress it as a central part of their storyline: Ignore it. It was an alternate future. Fans will be forgiving with that.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

It's Schrödinger's Romulus now.
Both blow'ed up and not blowed up at the same time. Why?

• on the one hand, the destruction of Romulus was part of Old Spocks' backstory, and old Spock was clearly intended to be "classic" Spock, so his backstory should theoretically be from the same "prime" universe (even though other things like red matter, the Narada and Nero don't match up as well)
• On the other hand what actually happened was: Romulus was blown up during the backstory in an alternate future that now can't happen anymore in the reality of an alternate universe. That shit is SO vague, I'd get everyone - including the fans and the writers - if they forgot that ever happened. Hell, I needed to be reminded that it ever happened - and I breatheTrek.

Here is how I would handle it:
If the writers of the Picard show have a story that clearly depends on Romulus being blown up (say, it heavily deals with the fall-out of this event), I say include it as a backstory. If NOT - if they want to tell a completely independant story, like Picard dealing with a personal event - leave it out. It's way too massive an event - the complete anhilation of one of the three original TOS power players - it would simply do a GREAT disservice to have that as a small background line "Oh btw Romulus blew'ed up, but nothing came from it and we're not dealing with any of it here" and then never show it again.

So I say: Either really deal with it on a story and character level and delve into all the consequences. Or leave it out completely and pretend it never happened.

But DON'T wing it.
Don't have it be a small, unimportant background event in an otherwise completely seperated story. If they really want Romulus to have been destroyed, it has way too wide and big implications to be just a little nitpick in the background. Either really put the focus on it. Or if they don't want to adress it as a central part of their storyline: Ignore it. It was an alternate future. Fans will be forgiving with that.

I'd say yes and no. You're right that leaving it in the background is problematic, but so is overwriting it for no other reason that you don't want to deal with it. If they want to deal with the Romulans in any way, they have to pick a side and they should pick whatever's best for their story. If they don't want to deal with it at all, they should never mention the Romulans except in generic references that don't give anything away and leave it for the next show to decide.

 

[Timo]

How much focus is enough focus? In one timeline, Vulcan is gone. The two movies dealing with that make peripheral use of Spock Prime and essentially leave it at that. And that's with a set of heroes that was right there when Vulcan blew (sucked?).

It still doesn't ring all that false: what else would remain to be done but to sigh "Vulcan is still gone" every once in a while?

Elsewhere in Trek, Romulus gets a mention when it does stuff. Unlike, say, Tholia or Breen, it's not mentioned if it does nothing, which is what Romulans are the most famous of (they can easily keep on not doing stuff for a full century!). Its absence need not destabilize the galaxy, despite Spock Prime's doomsaying.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Rahul]

How much focus is enough focus? In one timeline, Vulcan is gone. The two movies dealing with that make peripheral use of Spock Prime and essentially leave it at that. And that's with a set of heroes that was right there when Vulcan blew (sucked?).

It still doesn't ring all that false: what else would remain to be done but to sigh "Vulcan is still gone" every once in a while?

Elsewhere in Trek, Romulus gets a mention when it does stuff. Unlike, say, Tholia or Breen, it's not mentioned if it does nothing, which is what Romulans are the most famous of (they can easily keep on not doing stuff for a full century!). Its absence need not destabilize the galaxy, despite Spock Prime's doomsaying.

Timo Saloniemi

Yeah, I HATED that Vulcan being blown up never had any consequences. Like, literally, with the exception of two lines, both Into Darkness and Beyond would work exactly the same with or without Vulcan. There should have been at least something - apparently, in the comics some rogue Vulcans wanted to use time travel to reverse the event. Or they should have visited "New Vulcan", and have the Enterprise help the survivors. Anything would have been preferable to the nothing we got.

They can't repeat that mistake.

Romulus is too big. Contrary to the Vulcans, which basically stayed on their planets and had only a few ships and colonies, Romulans are an Empire. It'd be like Rome being destroyed at the height of the Roman Empire. There WOULD be fallout. Massively. There would be violent eruptions, revolutions, local warlords, blame shifting and everything. A clearly weakened Empire that had made a LOT of enemies now almost crippingly weakened - The Vulcans didn't have so many enemies. Romulans do. Literally nothing short of galactic war would be the outcome, and a massive, massive power vacuum.

They simply just can't have that limited to a background line "Oh, Romulus is gone. But apart from that the universe is the same". It's the difference between the real world before and after the iron curtain fell. Everything would be different after that.

I'd say yes and no. You're right that leaving it in the background is problematic, but so is overwriting it for no other reason that you don't want to deal with it. If they want to deal with the Romulans in any way, they have to pick a side and they should pick whatever's best for their story. If they don't want to deal with it at all, they should never mention the Romulans except in generic references that don't give anything away and leave it for the next show to decide.

That's why I think completely pretending it never happened in the prime universe is a completely justifiable and logical way:

Because it actually never happened in the prime universe.

It was never part of a prime universe story about it. It was backstory from an alternate future version of the story that was actually told (ST09). Like the alternate future in Back to the Future II. It happened. But not in the "real" world of the story that was told. It was only part of some time travel shennanigans.

So even IF they decide Romulus is really gone, they would need to explain the situation to any new viewer anyway. ST09 is almost ten years ago now, nobody remembers plot points from an alternate future version of that movie anyway.

So whatever they decide - Romulus blown up or not blown up - they need to completelyl re-introduce the situation anyway. In this context, IMO, having Romulus blown up really only makes sense if it's in the focus of the new show.

Having it specifically adressed "Oh, btw this MASSIVE thing happened", which would be needed, only to NOT go further with that and show any consequences, would be completely underwhelming storytelling in any possible way.

So, yeah, I stand by it:
Either tell a Romulan story in the Picard show (which I'm not the biggest fan of out of different reasons), or simply pretend Romulus blowing up never happened. Because it never happened outside of some time-travel shennanigan alternate future backstory anyway.

 

[The Wormhole]

Like, literally, with the exception of two lines, both Into Darkness and Beyond would work exactly the same with or without Vulcan. There should have been at least something - apparently, in the comics some rogue Vulcans wanted to use time travel to reverse the event.

No, that was actually the plot Orci wanted the third movie to be about. These Vulcans would have been working with Shatner Kirk as a convoluted plan to save the Prime Universe. Quinto Spock would have been torn between the chance to restore Vulcan and his loyalties to preserving the Kelvin Timeline.

I'm glad we got Beyond instead.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Yeah, I HATED that Vulcan being blown up never had any consequences. Like, literally, with the exception of two lines, both Into Darkness and Beyond would work exactly the same with or without Vulcan. There should have been at least something - apparently, in the comics some rogue Vulcans wanted to use time travel to reverse the event. Or they should have visited "New Vulcan", and have the Enterprise help the survivors. Anything would have been preferable to the nothing we got.

They can't repeat that mistake.

Romulus is too big. Contrary to the Vulcans, which basically stayed on their planets and had only a few ships and colonies, Romulans are an Empire. It'd be like Rome being destroyed at the height of the Roman Empire. There WOULD be fallout. Massively. There would be violent eruptions, revolutions, local warlords, blame shifting and everything. A clearly weakened Empire that had made a LOT of enemies now almost crippingly weakened - The Vulcans didn't have so many enemies. Romulans do. Literally nothing short of galactic war would be the outcome, and a massive, massive power vacuum.

They simply just can't have that limited to a background line "Oh, Romulus is gone. But apart from that the universe is the same". It's the difference between the real world before and after the iron curtain fell. Everything would be different after that.



That's why I think completely pretending it never happened in the prime universe is a completely justifiable and logical way:

Because it actually never happened in the prime universe.

It was never part of a prime universe story about it. It was backstory from an alternate future version of the story that was actually told (ST09). Like the alternate future in Back to the Future II. It happened. But not in the "real" world of the story that was told. It was only part of some time travel shennanigans.

So even IF they decide Romulus is really gone, they would need to explain the situation to any new viewer anyway. ST09 is almost ten years ago now, nobody remembers plot points from an alternate future version of that movie anyway.

So whatever they decide - Romulus blown up or not blown up - they need to completelyl re-introduce the situation anyway. In this context, IMO, having Romulus blown up really only makes sense if it's in the focus of the new show.

Having it specifically adressed "Oh, btw this MASSIVE thing happened", which would be needed, only to NOT go further with that and show any consequences, would be completely underwhelming storytelling in any possible way.

So, yeah, I stand by it:
Either tell a Romulan story in the Picard show (which I'm not the biggest fan of out of different reasons), or simply pretend Romulus blowing up never happened. Because it never happened outside of some time-travel shennanigan alternate future backstory anyway.

But my point is: this doesn't have to be addressed on this show at all. The setting is 10 years post nova and could be on the other side of the galaxy for all we know. If that happens to be the case, then why not just not mention any of it? Let the decision slide to a future show. Twisting Picard's return into a romulus fallout story may not be want they want to do, but if there is a possibility of a *different* show telling that story a few years down the line, is that something to just casually toss aside simply for the sake of a throwaway line/character about everything being hunky-dory in the Romulan empire?

I think this is a storyline with serious potential. Possibly moreso than most imaginable 24th century storylines. Therefore, I think the best choice is to stick with Schroedinger's Romulus until there's an actual reason not to - whether that reason be because they want to actually do this story, or because they've thought of a different story they think is better that requires Romulus to still be around.

 

[Nyotarules]

The Guardian of Forever says 'I fixed things, the events of ST09 never happened, Vulcan lives and so does the Romulan empire.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Romulus' fate is whatever the writers decide it is. They can either respect what ST09 did or not, not too many people (Outside folks like us) will question either way.

 

[Tuskin38]

STO was told by CBS to have the Hobus supernova happen because it happened in the Prime Universe.

Cryptic Studios had actually planned out a Romulus social zone map but had to scrap it because of ST'09's plot destroying Romulus in the Prime Universe.

The Prime Universe novels are also not allowed to contradict the supernova.

So the current evidence points towards CBS treating it as Prime.

 

[Rahul]

But my point is: this doesn't have to be addressed on this show at all. The setting is 10 years post nova and could be on the other side of the galaxy for all we know. If that happens to be the case, then why not just not mention any of it? Let the decision slide to a future show. Twisting Picard's return into a romulus fallout story may not be want they want to do, but if there is a possibility of a *different* show telling that story a few years down the line, is that something to just casually toss aside simply for the sake of a throwaway line/character about everything being hunky-dory in the Romulan empire?

I think this is a storyline with serious potential. Possibly moreso than most imaginable 24th century storylines. Therefore, I think the best choice is to stick with Schroedinger's Romulus until there's an actual reason not to - whether that reason be because they want to actually do this story, or because they've thought of a different story they think is better that requires Romulus to still be around.

Here is the thing: I absolutely DON'T want them to "twist Picard's return into a romulus fallout story" when they don't want to do this. Quite the opposite to be exactly. If they want to tell that story, then it makes sense to have Romulus blow'd up. If they don't, if they want to tell a completely different story, they should ignore the event as a whole.

Like you said, it's better to entirely ignore the Romulus situation in this case, until it's clear if they want to tell the stories of the fallout after the event. The worst thing they could do is a background line "Yeah, it happened, but we don't care about it". Either go all in, or nothing.

They can, for all intents and purposes, completely ignore everything Romulan in the Picard show - like they did in fact during the first season of TNG. Then they still have the choice, if they have this awesome idea about the fall of the Romulan Empire, they can reference the Hobus supernova. If they have a story where some regular Romulan baddies without a lot of baggage make sense, they can ignore it.

Basically: Completely ignore the supernova entirely, until they want tell their very first, deep Romulan story. THEN they have to decide wether it really happened or not. But don't include this massive event as some type of background noise in a story that has otherwise nothing to do with it.

 

[Rahul]

For the record: In my headcanon, the supernova took place, but didn't have the consequences Spock and Nero remembered. Like, it happened, but the planetary shields of Romulus hold up.

But the entire system went dark for a short period afterwards - So both Nero and Spock thought Romulus was wiped out: Because it wasn't on their sensors anymore, and the Romulans military prepared for the event in secret, so they didn't thought Romulus could have survived, and both of them were pretty much immediately sucked into the wormhole and the past before they could verify what really happened. Spock's"picture" of Romulus exploding during the mind-meld was simply his recollection, like him watching Vulcan implode from the surface of Delta Vega not an actual representation of what happened, but how he experienced the event.

In the "real" prime universe, Romulus went through an environmental catastrophe, with many casualties and some instability afterwards, but not complete annhilation.


I will stand with this theory until the fate of Romulus is addressed in canon on screen (and not some tie-in material).

 

[Timo]

There's a bit of observer bias there no matter what our preferences.

Often in Trek, important things go unmentioned simply because the things haven't been invented by the writers yet. It then follows that it is standard fare for our heroes to omit mention of, say, a war going on, unless it directly touches on their own lives or missions. This in-universe situation shouldn't be changed by the out-universe fact that the audience and the writers this time around happen to know that Romulus is dust.

"Shouldn't" in both in-universe and out-universe terms. On one hand, the Trek universe should not care about what the audience knows. But on the other hand, we also have precedent of good drama resulting not just despite the omission of mention of important things (such as the existence of the bellicose Klingons before "Errand of Mercy", as they soon make up for their absence), but because of such an omission (such as the existence of the bellicose Cardassians, who get defined as utter wimps by their absence and thus make for much more interesting adversaries in the later encounters).

Romulus can wait for a proper onscreen treatment. But it might also be interesting for Romulus not to wait, but to be disparagingly demoted to the casual remark status: "Sure, they were important while they existed, but that was then."

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Rahul]

The sad truth is: JJ. Abrams simply didn't care for Romulus or the Romulan Empire. As little as he cared for the "Hosnian system" and the "New Republic" in Force Awakens. In both cases, ST09 and episode VII, he essentially wanted to remake the original Star Wars. And he wanted to destroy a planet as the middlepoint of his movie, no matter if it made sense or not or was part of the larger narrative.
In ST09, that planet was Vulcan. About which he honestly cared at least more than about the Hosnian system. The destruction of Romulus was just a pretext to allow for some bad-guy rationalization/thing-to-want-revenge-for. He went the absolute, most inconsequential way: An alternate future backstory that has been changed. You can't get more non-specific than that. Everything surrounding that is bogus. "A supernova threaten to destro the galaxy". Really? You can't get more vague and non-commital.
I think it would be wrong to get too hung up upon it. It made sense when the prime universe was meant to be discontinued, because then it was the last thing happening in there, and nobody needed to care about the consequences and, frankly, the reasons for it.
Now this vague-ness bites them back. Because it was never meant to be revisited, and now you're stuck up with a situation that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, is vague at best, nobody remembers it, and -again- has the stint of being a retroactively changed alternate future backstory.
It would be a mistake to treat that as a definite event that happened. Because in the context of the story it was told in (ST09) it not only never happened, but never will. Having it really have happened in the prime universe would be as much a retcon as having it never have happened. This whole situation is just weird. Not well thought out time travel and bad science. A really awful combination.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Why would anyone care about the Hosnian System? It was made up to be blown up.

 

[BillJ]

...Vulcan lives and so does the Romulan empire.

I'm not sure that it matters. Either both Vulcan and Romulus live on, or pretty much the same exact stories can be done with New Vulcan and New Romulus as was done before.

 

[Tuskin38]

Why would anyone care about the Hosnian System? It was made up to be blown up.

Same with Alderaan.

But seriously though so far CBS official stance is that Hobus explosion was prime.

I guess that could have been because at the time they didn’t have any movies or TV shows it could potentially effect.

 

[Rahul]

Same with Alderaan.

Alderaan had a clear story purpose. It was the destination of our heroes, and the homeworld of Leia and the assumed seat of the resistance to the Empire (even if only the non-violent one).

The Hosnian system was there to be blown up - together with the backstory of the Star Wars universe, the New Republic, all the achievements of our original heroes etc., to set back the universe to the state it had during the original trilogy. But they never integrated it into the story of the movie itself, like they did with Vulcan or Alderaan. Which was IMO a crucial mistake, and makes the whole thing feel shallow.

Like, if you took Alderaan out of "New hope", even though we never saw the planet up close, you would need to change the entire structure of the movie. If you took the Hosnian system out of epVII? Well...

 

[Tenacity]

The Prime Universe novels are also not allowed to contradict the supernova.

Have they gotten to that point in time yet?

 

[Tuskin38]

Have they gotten to that point in time yet?

No they’re still a couple years out in-Universe.

But at least one of the writers has said they were not allowed to contradict it since it’s part of the canon.

 

[Bad Robot]

STO was told by CBS to have the Hobus supernova happen because it happened in the Prime Universe.

Cryptic Studios had actually planned out a Romulus social zone map but had to scrap it because of ST'09's plot destroying Romulus in the Prime Universe.

The Prime Universe novels are also not allowed to contradict the supernova.

So the current evidence points towards CBS treating it as Prime.

That's VERY interesting. Well I guess that kind of answers it.

I was about to say, as I just said in another thread, that CBS is under no obligation to reciprocate by acknowledging the Kelvin tangentverse. And I still feel that way from a creative intellectual property standpoint. But there's no reason NOT to acknowledge it if they're so inclined.

I also agree with others on this thread that they could ignore it entirely if it's not important to story. Regardless of how much space is wiped off the map, if it's not important to story they need not mention it.

And if it does come up in the story (whether it's part of the story or just mentioned in passing) they should have the freedom to retcon it any way they want to that it makes plausible sense in a science fiction context. Since any version of ST to come out of CBS will "likely" be more heavily science fiction than the BR films, which are more science fantasy.

It also wouldn't be a "bad" idea for both studios to keep their respective ST continuities open to each other, pending the possibility of another attempted merger in the near or distant future. When one was in talks several months ago, I couldn't help but wonder what it might mean for the two films Paramount was planning (now one of them's in danger due to casting/budget negotiations). Some fans mean-spiritedly predicted the films would be dropped because they didn't fit CBS's vision for ST. I think that would be an extraordinarily unfortunate thing, and naturally I'm just as happy that the merger didn't happen. CBS has a five-year plan, Paramount wants (wanted) to make two more movies, I'd just as soon they both continue working separately for now under the circumstances.

But one can only plan ahead so far when greenlighting these projects. It's probably not a bad idea for both parties to play nice in the ST sandbox.

I voted that it blew up. I prefer either that or ignored altogether. I really don't like the thought of undermining what they've done with more timey-whimey nonsense. We already had Berman Trek (particularly VOY and ENT) for that. The 2009 movie was novel for being only ST's second time-travel story (The Voyage Home was the first) that didn't make itself "about" the time travel.