Spoilers The Reality War grade and discussion thread

[Mr Awe]

That's why I was fuming over this fucking thing for nearly two days now. Its so jarring and inconsistent and annoyingly not cohesive, at all.

Agreed. I totally understand.

 

[Nerys Myk]

How it should have gone:
"Poppy's World" should have been established as the prime reality and Poppy better seeded through out the entire season. Glitches where Belinda sees her or something. Bringing Poppy back should reset the Universe to the "proper" order.

Only one Rani. Either Mrs. Flood is the only Rani or she's just a flunky of the Rani. Love Archie, so make her The Rani. Hell, go out on a limb and make Mrs. Flood Omega and they've been pulling the Rani's strings all along.

That said, if you're gonna do fan service, then stunt cast and really service the fan. Omega played by peter Davidson Old fans will go "Oooooh!" New fans will go "He's that guy from that special!" Newest fans will go " Must be some old famous guy". Yeah that means no clunky CGI monster. It can still play out the same with Omega pulling the Rani's energy from her and the Doctor forcing Omega back through the door with the thingy.

I assume the Pantheon is/was meant to be resolved in Ncuti's third season. Over arching villains for his run. Now I assume, the next Doctor will pick up the gauntlet. They should have tied in the Pantheon with Omega, the self declared "God of Time". They are Time Lords, who like Omega, have ascended to a plane above (below?) our reality. They are to Time Lords like the Time Lords are to us. (Who's the insect now, Rani?) The Lords who supported Omega and like him were banished. The murderous Time Lords referenced by the Doctor. A few even have "Doctor/Master" type names: The Toymaker, the Maestro and the Trickster.

Susan. She should have played a part in Omega's defeat. Perhaps she's trapped in the Under-Universe and has worked to ensure Omega's downfall. She escapes and sees Poppy. "Mother?" Poppy is Susan's mother. But is she a Time Lady? Sonic says no but...?

The regeneration. I've no problem with Billie showing up. As stated elsewhere, I'd have Billie be the TARDIS matrix now in the body of the Doctor. She chose Rose's appearance because Rose once connected to the Time Vortex. Now the question is what happened to the Doctor? A journey through time as space is the answer.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Actually, the Doctor did notice. When Donna did first start saying mavity in Wild Blue Yonder, he gave her strange looks, and later in the episode when he said gravity, Donna got confused and asked "what did you say?" to which he answered "sorry, I meant mavity."

Oohhh...that's right, I had forgotten about that.

In that case, I agree that it would be nice to have an open acknowledgement, if just a brief one, that mavity returned to gravity.

First rule of internet discussions: you don't take anyone seriously when they're talking about a show/movie they've admitted they haven't seen.

Agreed 100%. I'm just amused by the sheer arrogance of "I've seen the recaps! I don't need to watch the episode to properly judge it!" Proclamations like that make it all the easier for people to ignore such irrelevant opinions.

I liked Belinda but the doctor killed himself and re-wrote her life entirely to save a version of a child that didn't exist. It felt wrong to me.

I've seen a lot of a negativity about that moment but I've been skimming over the comments because of all of the frothing at the mouth, but I have to say your straightforward, brief summation struck a chord far better than any of the previous comments. Seeing that situation from that angle (and I'm not saying it's inaccurate) does feel quite wrong.

I don't think that's what The Doctor intended to, but I also think Davies may not have fully considered this particular action. I think he may have been too caught up in the moment of The Doctor finding himself a father (again) and Davies wanted to do anything to ensure that remained (even if The Doctor himself didn't see it)...but still wanted the tragic twist at the end. This isn't the first time Davies wanted to have his cake and eat it, too (looking at you, Meta-Crisis Doctor).

To be clear, I'm not forgiving Davies for this action but I am trying to see what his intentions were and why.

Huh, look at that. ME, defending Davies (if only lightly so). What has the world become?

I thought the exact same thing!

At least Big Finish has a sense of humor about it.

As much by dumb luck as anything else, I avoided spoilers beyond the rumours about the regen, and as a result...enjoyed it immensely!

Great performances, fantastic effects, thoroughly swept up in the energy. Yeah, the music was a little much at times, and some new cues wouldn't go amiss. Yeah, Omega being another giant CG creation was underwhelming. Yeah, the end of the Rani was a bit abrupt. And yeah, it did drag on slightly at the end. Do I really care, though? No, as I was having too much fun with the sheer experience of it all.

That, for me, is what RTD is after, has always been after: creating an experience. In that, in my opinion, he's succeeded far more often than not, including this time. Said it before, say it again: this is the most invested in Doctor Who I've been in ages. I almost literally lost my mind at Jodie's appearance, completely blindsided by it, and if a show can do that I think it's doing something right.

I wasn't so blindsided by Billie, because of those rumours, and still have no idea what to make of it. I have doubts, but I'm also doing my best to keep an open mind. A big worry was the reactions it'd get if it did happen, and those worries were justified.

This is one of the most succinct and kind reviews I've seen in a long time...and it's so damn refreshing.

I particularly like your point about Davies striving to create experiences and I think you're absolutely right on that point. Either in this thread or another one in this forum, there was a brief discussion about how Davies does a lot with the heart but not much with the brain and I think that notion fits nicely with your thoughts on Davies' writing.

I genuinely cannot understand the mindset of some, including some on this board. Being so negative about something, yet so fixated on it at the same time, to the point of leaping on every rumour and posting screeds about them. The level of confirmation bias can be bewildering at times. Why? Is your sense of self-worth tied up in proving you're right about the show's decline and fall? Did RTD personally offend you and now you're directing all your energies toward bringing about his ignominous downfall?

Agreed 1000%. I'm so very tired of all the constant whining and doom and gloom and outright anger. It's exhausting to read. I cannot imagine what it's like to live it.

Again, what the hell? Here I am defending Davies some more.

 

[Starkers]

I feel your pain @The Nth Doctor anyone who was on this forum back in the day knows I was never the biggest RTD fan in the world but I feel like I defend him way more than I used to!

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I feel your pain @The Nth Doctor anyone who was on this forum back in the day knows I was never the biggest RTD fan in the world but I feel like I defend him way more than I used to!

I'm glad it's not just me!

 

[Commander Troi]

SO! That was... a lot. I had tried to avoid spoilers, but didn't see the episode until later in the evening and the regen was all over social media. Still, I didn't see Anita and the Time Hotel coming and was really pleased about that. I also didn't know about Jodie appearing and I found myself really touched, even if her appearance didn't make much sense. I loved that Ruby wished for Conrad to be happy - I don't think I would've been so mature. I liked Mel giving background on the Rani. I liked that Mrs. Flood!Rani escaped to annoy us another day.

I'm not sure how I feel about Poppy and the momifying of Belinda.

I'm sad about Ncuti leaving. I feel like we just got to know him. His goodbye video to the fans made me cry.

My husband knew nothing going in and was definitely shocked by the ending.

At least I feel fairly sure that the rumors the show is ending aren't true because RTD left several mysteries lying about, including Susan and "The Boss". I think he'd have tried to tie everything in a Neat Little Bow if the show was going off the air.

Then there's Billie... I find myself looking forward to what she's going to bring to the table. It's been 20 years since she first showed up on my screen and I know she's done a fair amount of work since leaving. I think it will be interesting.

 

[Mr Awe]

I assume the Pantheon is/was meant to be resolved in Ncuti's third season. Over arching villains for his run. Now I assume, the next Doctor will pick up the gauntlet.

I could be wrong, but my impression is that the Pantheon is considered defeated. Ncuti has some lines to the effect that he beat the gods and that, as usual, he won. Words to that effect.

I like your ideas though!

 

[Mr Awe]

I've seen a lot of a negativity about that moment but I've been skimming over the comments because of all of the frothing at the mouth, but I have to say your straightforward, brief summation struck a chord far better than any of the previous comments. Seeing that situation from that angle (and I'm not saying it's inaccurate) does feel quite wrong.

I don't think that's what The Doctor intended to, but I also think Davies may not have fully considered this particular action. I think he may have been too caught up in the moment of The Doctor finding himself a father (again) and Davies wanted to do anything to ensure that remained (even if The Doctor himself didn't see it)...but still wanted the tragic twist at the end. This isn't the first time Davies wanted to have his cake and eat it, too (looking at you, Meta-Crisis Doctor).

The whole Poppy thing was a mess. Ultimately, frustrating because of the convoluted way of getting to an outcome that feels wrong.

I think what RTD wanted to do was something similar to Tennant giving it all up to save Wilf, even though he was a dying old man anyway. He wanted that vibe but it just got all garbled into something not right. That's my guess at least.

 

[Mr Awe]

I feel your pain @The Nth Doctor anyone who was on this forum back in the day knows I was never the biggest RTD fan in the world but I feel like I defend him way more than I used to!

I'm glad it's not just me!

My general approach is just to call them how I see them. If they're great, like The Well, I rave about them. But when they're bad, there's no point holding back. And if they're in the middle, like most of this season, that's where I put them. So, it's really all about how good the season is. And I want all the episode to be fantastic.

As for RTD, as I wrote elsewhere, I really enjoyed his first era. This second one is landing very different. And I like the characters. Ncuti as the Doctor was great. Loved both Ruby and Belinda.

But the writing just hasn't been there overall compared to his earlier work on DW. And, no, I haven't seen his other stuff. So, I'm just comparing RTD1 to RTD2.

 

[Chaos Descending]

At least I feel fairly sure that the rumors the show is ending aren't true because RTD left several mysteries lying about, including Susan and "The Boss". I think he'd have tried to tie everything in a Neat Little Bow if the show was going off the air.

Well the thing is, it's not exactly rumor per se, is it?

What we know:
1. No further episodes of Doctor Who beyond what we just got have yet been commissioned by anyone, on any platform whatsoever.
2. Further episodes of Doctor Who beyond what we just got were dependent on the ratings / viewership for this season that just ended.
3. Viewership for Disney+ Season 1 wasn't particularly good.
4. We have reliable information that says that viewership for Disney+ Season 2 was worse than that for Disney+ Season 1.

Add that all together and it seems unlikely that Doctor Who is coming back any time soon.

 

[David cgc]

Thinking back on it, the theory that Ruby was meant to be the companion for both seasons makes a lot of sense; if you imagine all of Belinda's plot in the finale happening with Ruby instead, it fits a lot better; Ruby likes children, she has a personal investment in foundlings, the Doctor literally said in so many words that he wished he and Ruby were Captain Poppy's parents, which is the only way anything about this plot could've ever made sense.

It seems like the target ending was incompletely rewritten when a different companion came into the picture, a bit like how Tasha Lem from "Time of the Doctor" was clearly River Song at some point during the writing process, or perhaps this ending was hastily salvaged for reshoots when Ncuti decided he couldn't stay without knowing if or when season 3 would happen (though I suspect that in the original version, the Zero Room would've simply worked and Poppy would've stuck around, since there's too much build-up about her for it to have ever been in the cards that she just evaporated).

 

[bdub76]

I feel like Who has existed (with some notable exceptions) in that space since Heaven Sent and its ability to coast on its legacy is faltering. We know British shows can roll on nearly indefinitely after the quality is gone (I'm looking at you, Call the Midwife), but trying to break big American streaming during a period of such coasting was particularly iffy.

It feels like what comics did in the 80s. It's struggling with the weight of all that has gone before it, and it hopes readers figure it out. Of course, lots of comics reset in the 80s and 90s as a result.

The biggest problem with DW on Disney+ is that it didn't reset enough for new fans. There is so much old stuff built into these two seasons that any new fan is going to be lost. The best episodes are those that didn't expect the viewer to have seen a lot of Classic and rebooted DW.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

How it should have gone:
"Poppy's World" should have been established as the prime reality and Poppy better seeded through out the entire season. Glitches where Belinda sees her or something. Bringing Poppy back should reset the Universe to the "proper" order.

Only one Rani. Either Mrs. Flood is the only Rani or she's just a flunky of the Rani. Love Archie, so make her The Rani. Hell, go out on a limb and make Mrs. Flood Omega and they've been pulling the Rani's strings all along.

That said, if you're gonna do fan service, then stunt cast and really service the fan. Omega played by peter Davidson Old fans will go "Oooooh!" New fans will go "He's that guy from that special!" Newest fans will go " Must be some old famous guy". Yeah that means no clunky CGI monster. It can still play out the same with Omega pulling the Rani's energy from her and the Doctor forcing Omega back through the door with the thingy.

I assume the Pantheon is/was meant to be resolved in Ncuti's third season. Over arching villains for his run. Now I assume, the next Doctor will pick up the gauntlet. They should have tied in the Pantheon with Omega, the self declared "God of Time". They are Time Lords, who like Omega, have ascended to a plane above (below?) our reality. They are to Time Lords like the Time Lords are to us. (Who's the insect now, Rani?) The Lords who supported Omega and like him were banished. The murderous Time Lords referenced by the Doctor. A few even have "Doctor/Master" type names: The Toymaker, the Maestro and the Trickster.

Susan. She should have played a part in Omega's defeat. Perhaps she's trapped in the Under-Universe and has worked to ensure Omega's downfall. She escapes and sees Poppy. "Mother?" Poppy is Susan's mother. But is she a Time Lady? Sonic says no but...?

The regeneration. I've no problem with Billie showing up. As stated elsewhere, I'd have Billie be the TARDIS matrix now in the body of the Doctor. She chose Rose's appearance because Rose once connected to the Time Vortex. Now the question is what happened to the Doctor? A journey through time as space is the answer.

Those are great suggestions and I think that further proves that Davies has some wonderful ideas, but he desperately needs an editor to rein him in and make those ideas more concise.

Thinking back on it, the theory that Ruby was meant to be the companion for both seasons makes a lot of sense; if you imagine all of Belinda's plot in the finale happening with Ruby instead, it fits a lot better; Ruby likes children, she has a personal investment in foundlings, the Doctor literally said in so many words that he wished he and Ruby were Captain Poppy's parents, which is the only way anything about this plot could've ever made sense.

I've been resisting the idea that Ruby was always going to be the companion for this season but the evidence you lay out here certainly suggests that may well have been the case.

More than anything, I feel bad for Varada Sethu. She had some great individual episodes in the first half of the season but she quickly slide to the wayside in favor for this trajectory.

 

[The Wormhole]

The idea that Ruby was supposed to be the companion for both seasons really does make far too much sense when you look back on the second season. One issue I did have with Belinda is that she did seem to take a liking to the Doctor way too quickly for someone abruptly removed from her day to day life (and now we know, a daughter) and seemed surprisingly tolerant of the fact they had to jump around to different time periods to use the vindicator in order to return to May 2025. Now if it were Ruby, that would be easier to accept, given her pre-existing relationship with the Doctor. Sure, she's annoyed at the disruption to her routine, but given she knows the Doctor she could quickly fall back into the rhythm of their friendship.

The one hiccup with the theory is if Ruby were the S2 companion, who would Lucky Day have been about instead? The only other possibility I can think of is Rose Noble, and instead of Ruby's PTSD making her believe there are aliens everywhere, it becomes Rose's enthusiasm and desire for adventure making her believe there are aliens involved. Problem is, given how much of a piece of shit Conrad was, I can't imagine wanting to fake a relationship with Rose, even with the intent of using her to discredit UNIT.

 

[Mr Awe]

Thinking back on it, the theory that Ruby was meant to be the companion for both seasons makes a lot of sense; if you imagine all of Belinda's plot in the finale happening with Ruby instead, it fits a lot better; Ruby likes children, she has a personal investment in foundlings, the Doctor literally said in so many words that he wished he and Ruby were Captain Poppy's parents, which is the only way anything about this plot could've ever made sense.

It seems like the target ending was incompletely rewritten when a different companion came into the picture, a bit like how Tasha Lem from "Time of the Doctor" was clearly River Song at some point during the writing process, or perhaps this ending was hastily salvaged for reshoots when Ncuti decided he couldn't stay without knowing if or when season 3 would happen (though I suspect that in the original version, the Zero Room would've simply worked and Poppy would've stuck around, since there's too much build-up about her for it to have ever been in the cards that she just evaporated).

Pretty sure that's what happened. Ruby -> Bel. Ncuti out. And possibly Susan's scenes being cut for unknown reasons.

 

[JD]

I've seen a few comments about rewrites and I'm wondering if the episode was originally supposed to be regular length, and all of the stuff with bringing Poppy back was added on to extend it and give us the regeneration. It really did feel kind of tacked on at the end, like they just needed something to get that extra 20 or whatever minutes out of it.

 

[bdub76]

I've seen a few comments about rewrites and I'm wondering if the episode was originally supposed to be regular length, and all of the stuff with bringing Poppy back was added on to extend it and give us the regeneration. It really did feel kind of tacked on at the end, like they just needed something to get that extra 20 or whatever minutes out of it.

There was also a screenshot of a scene that never took place as well.

I'm guessing that Ncuti Gatwa didn't renew for a third season.

Most actors tend to play the Doctor for three seasons, so I'm sure there is a lot of behind the scenes stuff we don't know about.

 

[matthunter]

There was also a screenshot of a scene that never took place as well.

I'm guessing that Ncuti Gatwa didn't renew for a third season.

Most actors tend to play the Doctor for three seasons, so I'm sure there is a lot of behind the scenes stuff we don't know about.

Most convincing argument I've seen is that, with Disney leaving the show hanging about if/when a third season would be, Ncuti would be left in the lurch with regard to taking on other projects and wasn't willing to do so.

 

[cultcross]

So "Andrew" has revealed what I suspected, that there were two corrections to the ending, one major reshoot to write out Ncuti and then, at the last minute, writing in Billie while season 2 was already airing.

 

[26138]

Those are great suggestions and I think that further proves that Davies has some wonderful ideas, but he desperately needs an editor to rein him in and make those ideas more concise.

Reminds me of George Lucas and the prequel trilogy. Dunno if I've posted that here before or not.