The REAL reason that Kes isn't a more beloved character...

[Lynx]

Precisely. And if you want to write Trek without pissing us off, you'd better assume that we'll pay attention.

I totally agree.

Given how badly Harry was used the rest of the series, it arguably would have been more productive to end "Non Sequitur" with him realizing that there was no way back and move on. Drink Vulcan mocha, make lieutenant, marry Libby, make babies, get on with his life. If someone gotta be duh ensign (arguably the most ridiculous thing ever said by a Trek showrunner), put a uniform on Kes or Neelix.

I wouldn't have gone as far as killing off or writing out Harry, they could at least have written him better, liike in some of the Voyager books.

As for Kes, she would have looked great in a Starfleet uniform and should have been made Ensign or Lieutenant and counselor.

You can have it both ways, too. Basically, run Voyager like you did. But put in the necessary explanations and dialogue changes to wipe out the inconsistencies. Here's how to neatly dispose of nine or ten of them:
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/how-to-resolve-6-voyager-inconsistencies-in-85-seconds.309089/

Good suggestions, even if I must state that my idea of a Shuttle and Torpedo Building team would be the best way to solve that problem.

cargo bays? Voyager was 343 meters long, after all. That as big as an aircraft carrier, but with less than 3% of the crew size. Maybe that's also why they could carry so many shuttles.

Dialogue from the episode Parallax where the idea of the Hydroponics bay first was suggested:
KES: I've been thinking that you might be able to convert one of your lower decks into a hydroponics bay to grow your own food. I understand that the replicators are down and that the emergency rations won't hold out much longer.
KIM: What about Cargo Bay two? It was designed for organic storage and it already has adjustable environmental controls.
JANEWAY: When can you start?
KES: Me?
JANEWAY: It's your idea. It's your project.
KES: Right away.
NEELIX: I can do some wonderful things with vegetables, Captain. My feragoit goulash is known across twelve star systems.

That is true. But given it's high rewatch rate, that suggests that they enjoy the "comfort Trek" it offers.

I still like Voyager, at least "The Kes seasons" and I still like to watch those seasons, actually most of the episodes. So far, I'm happy with the characters, the premise of the show and the show itself.
In fact, Voyager is the only show together with NCIS where I took an immediate liking to ALL the main characters from the first time I watched the first episode. OK CSI NY comes close too. Otherwise, it usually takes two or three episodes before I know if I like a show or not and how much I like it.

But after watching DS9 from start to finish a couple of times in recent years, I have beginning to compare and I often theink "What if......." when it comes to Voyager. The characters and the premise were great, I just wish that the show would have become better than it was.

line: I am more or less Ok with the decision to walk away from the premises of what made the show unique (deprivation, intra-crew conflict) and present a more TNG-ish product. But getting past the sheer sloppiness of how they did it... not so easy.

Me too. I'm happy that Voyager never became like Stargate Universe with all its bickering between factions. But the writing overall was too sloppy and some things which didnt work were just glossed over like, "Ah, never mind. The viewers won't notice."

Remember that in "The Gift", Seven went from zero to full head of hair instantly, and the Doc explained that he had stimulated her hair follicles. So, a person can presumably grow hair very quickly if they choose to.

But not The Doctor!
They didn't bother to re-program him with hair!

You wouldn't even need all that dialogue just one or two lines referencing the existence of such a team would be all that was needed.

That's right.
But you have to agree that my little dialogue would have solved the problem perfectly and would only take two-three minutes.

Jennifer developed an allergy to the glue they used on her ears is one of the reasons I believe.

That's correct.
Which was a pity. I preferred Kes with the shorter hair. A trademark for the character as I see it.
Of course she is back to that style in my stories!

 

[Oddish]

wouldn't have gone as far as killing off or writing out Harry, they could at least have written him better, liike in some of the Voyager books.

Oh, I agree, developing him was the best course of action. But if they weren't going to do it, killing him off would have upped the stakes, and eliminating him in "Non Sequitur" would at least have been an interesting twist.

Good suggestions, even if I must state that my idea of a Shuttle and Torpedo Building team would be the best way to solve that problem.

Your idea inspired my idea, actually. I just put my own spin on it.

But after watching DS9 from start to finish a couple of times in recent years, I have beginning to compare and I often theink "What if......." when it comes to Voyager. The characters and the premise were great, I just wish that the show would have become better than it was.

In terms of character development, there's no comparison. DS9 juggled 25 or so main and recurring characters, and did interesting things with most of them.

But the writing overall was too sloppy and some things which didnt work were just glossed over like, "Ah, never mind. The viewers won't notice."

And of course, we did.

But not The Doctor!

The Doctor didn't even have to be reprogrammed. He was capable of altering his appearance at will. He could have just given himself a full head of hair, like he (presumably) did in "Before and After".

Which was a pity. I preferred Kes with the shorter hair. A trademark for the character as I see it.

It was a good look, but if the glue was hurting Jennifer Lien's ears, she should have been allowed to grow it out sooner. You need to take care of your people.

 

[Lynx]

Your idea inspired my idea, actually. I just put my own spin on it.

Thanks a lot! An honor, as I see it!

In terms of character development, there's no comparison. DS9 juggled 25 or so main and recurring characters, and did interesting things with most of them.

Well there we have something I was about to take upin some post.

Voyager should have had more good recurring characters!
If we look at DS9, they had about 25 or so recurring characters, both "good guys" and "bad guys", among them Garak, the best recurring character ever in any series. Yo never knew if he was a bad guy or good guy until the end of the series when he ended up o the good side.

As for Voyager, I can understand the problems with coming up with recurring "bad guys" since the ship was traveling through a wide area which also was the premise for the show. Those in charge also managed to kill of the best possible bad guys onn the ship, Seska and Suder.

Otherwise Voyager had the nice couple Cullugh and Seska for two seasons but of course it was impossible to keep the Kazon around any longer.

But if we compare with DS9, that show had a lot of good recurring characters among those stationed at Deep Space Nine, on Bajor and as guests on the station. Voyager should have had such characters too. They had some good ones, like Carey, Dalby, Chell, Gerron, Henley, Hogan, Ayala who could and should have been used more. A pity that we never saw dalby, Henley, Chell and gerron again after Learning Curve. It would have been nice to see what become of them after Tuvok's "ground course of Starfleet regulations". They do show up in some of the books. And why not let Wixiban join the crew? he and Neelix could have been Voyager's answer to Quark and Rom.

And of course, we did.

Am I surprised that the viewers did notice the flaws?
No, and those in charge shouldn't have been that either.

It was a good look, but if the glue was hurting Jennifer Lien's ears, she should have been allowed to grow it out sooner. You need to take care of your people.

Well, they didn't do that when they kicked her out some months later.
But I can see your point. Just sad that she did develope that allergy to that glue.

 

[Mage]

I'm not making any such claim in this post. I don't think it's any great riddle and I've heard and read some variation of this same opinion in many other places before I posted it here.

Your topic title literally starts with "The REAL...." and you talk smack about not making claims....??

Damn, as a Dutch native speaker even I have better command of the English language.

 

[Oddish]

They had some good ones, like Carey, Dalby, Chell, Gerron, Henley, Hogan, Ayala who could and should have been used more. A pity that we never saw dalby, Henley, Chell and gerron again after Learning Curve. It would have been nice to see what become of them after Tuvok's "ground course of Starfleet regulations". They do show up in some of the books. And why not let Wixiban join the crew? he and Neelix could have been Voyager's answer to Quark and Rom.

A few more aliens in the background would have helped. The crew was kind of... unbalanced that way.

 

[gweeps]

RE: Voyager. Let's not forget Vorik and Ballard.

 

[Oddish]

As for Kes, she would have looked great in a Starfleet uniform and should have been made Ensign or Lieutenant and counselor.

It seems strangely vicarious who was expected to wear a uniform and who wasn't... Kes certainly looks good like that, and it seems like a mod tech would wear a uniform; most of Crusher's staff did. In "Relativity", Seven was gorgeous in Starfleet blue as well. And Neelix looked good in yellow, on the multiple occasions he wore it.

Those in charge also managed to kill of the best possible bad guys onn the ship, Seska and Suder.

I'm currently writing a story that speculates what would have happened if Seska had not been able to defect to the Kazon, among other things.

And why not let Wixiban join the crew? he and Neelix could have been Voyager's answer to Quark and Rom.

Sadly, they couldn't even develop one Talaxian, despite having a whole new culture to create from scratch. Rom and Nog didn't exist in a vacuum; DS9 created a culture for them. And then destroyed it, sadly.

RE: Voyager. Let's not forget Vorik and Ballard.

Are we talking human Ballard or zombie Ballard? The latter might have been a really interesting cast addition...

 

[gweeps]

Are we talking human Ballard or zombie Ballard? The latter might have been a really interesting cast addition...

She reminded me of the Borg Queen.

 

[at Quark's]

Voyager had an excellent premise, but they opted to make it Star Trek Comfort Food instead, going the safe route and constantly trying to make it a lesser TNG, because they felt audiences wanted that, and it was easy to do. So they avoided the maquis/Starfleet dynamic. They did not let Kes develop enough as a character (except in Fury, and it was too much too late) , nor Chakotay, or many of the others. In later seasons they relied heavily on EMH and Seven. It's hard to blame them on one hand, as it worked, and kept the show running to the conclusion, but it could have been much more than it was.

Funny thing is, it may really work that way. When I'm really tired and I still don't want to sleep, I might turn to a VOY episode rather than to a DS9 episode, exactly because it's bland enough to not exert me in any way - not even by drawing me in emotionally. (So I can agree with you, except for the Fury episode which I've always considered an insult).

 

[Dave Scarpa]

I just tried to watch the 6th episode of the series and it brought back why I didn’t care for Voyager. It wasted its premise. We start the episode with Janeway not able to get coffee due to resources lack of replicator power. Yet not 15 min in we have Tom and Kim going into a cheesy holodeck setting. Guess no issue using the power for that. If they had played the premise out it could have been interesting but they never embraced it and it was just another trek show

 

[Guy Gardener]

I just tried to watch the 6th episode of the series and it brought back why I didn’t care for Voyager. It wasted its premise. We start the episode with Janeway not able to get coffee due to resources lack of replicator power. Yet not 15 min in we have Tom and Kim going into a cheesy holodeck setting. Guess no issue using the power for that. If they had played the premise out it could have been interesting but they never embraced it and it was just another trek show

Parallax.

JANEWAY: What about alternative energy sources? Ensign Kim, have you had any luck getting power from the holodeck reactors?
KIM: Not yet. We tried hooking them to the power grid and we ended up blowing out half the relays. The holodeck's energy matrix, it just isn't compatible with the other power systems.

30 years ago, almost, they saw you coming Dave.

 

[Oddish]

30 years ago, almost, they saw you coming Dave.

Why couldn't they have been that slick the rest of the series? When other inconsistencies needed to be explained?

 

[Lynx]

Why couldn't they have been that slick the rest of the series? When other inconsistencies needed to be explained?

At least they did realize that they needed the holodeck for some episodes and therefore couldn*t let it be affected by the constant lack of power so they came up with a plausible explanation.
However, a bit weird that the holodeck was so different from replicators and other items which needed energy.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The warp reactor produces the power of a million exploding atom bombs every second.

Starving the crew for a month gives them an extra tenth of a second of shields during a fire fight.

Which in all likeliness amounts to nothing critical.

 

[Oddish]

Shhh... we're just supposed to accept that it takes more juice to pop out a cuppa joe than move a 343-meter long starship along at 1000+ times the speed of light.

 

[Tracy Trek]

Given that Voyager is not known to have a barber, one does wonder how all the male crew kept their hair so short and neat. Even the Maquis looked more "recruiting poster" than "rogue warrior".

Holographic barber?

 

[Tracy Trek]

A pity that we never saw dalby, Henley, Chell and gerron again after Learning Curve

We did see Chell again. In the episode Repression.

 

[Oddish]

Holographic barber?

Very possible. Though if I were a male crewman, I wouldn't use my very limited holodeck time for that... I'd just replicate a few scrunchies.

 

[Lynx]

We did see Chell again. In the episode Repression.

Due to certain events in season 6, I never watched season 7 (except for "Endgame") so I missed that episode with Chell.

But I think that he, Dalby, Henley and Gerron should have been recurring characters and shwed up in more episodes.

 

[fireproof78]

Due to certain events in season 6, I never watched season 7 (except for "Endgame") so I missed that episode with Chell.

But I think that he, Dalby, Henley and Gerron should have been recurring characters and shwed up in more episodes.

And take away from the rest of the cast? Nonsense!