The REAL reason that Kes isn't a more beloved character...

[Oddish]

The thing about Star Trek is that, due to the the nature of the medium, changing premises is easy enough to do.
Tried of having to ration out 38 torpedoes? Trade for a hundred more photonic implosion warheads with a friendly alien race. Maybe Voyager has some bits of a Borg cube, or was able to mine some valuable ore.
Want to blow up another couple shuttles? Do what @Lynx suggests and start a shuttle construction team.
Got a Borg baby onboard but don't want to go any further with that? Have Janeway say that the child's homeworld was only a couple light years away, and she's back with her own people.
Just invent a reasonable explanation, and we'll be satisfied.

 

[Brennyren]

The 'Serialized Procedural' isn't actually an officially recognized subgenre of television, yet there are dozens of television series that fall under that umbrella. Besides Voyager, you have Star Trek Enterprise, all of the CSI series, every Law and Order series, Fringe, Bones, Angel, Person of Interest, Lucifer, and Elementary, just to name a few, all of which share some or all of the following characteristics:
* They tell largely episodic stories that are wrapped up by the end of a given week, but which simultaneously feed into a larger serialized narrative framework

* They are largely character-focused, with characters whose interpersonal conflicts and drama progress from episode to episode

* They introduce recurring characters who seem like one-off guest stars, but frequently return to play off the regular characters as either antagonistic foils or outright villainous adversaries

* They tell stories that seem like one-offs but are later referred back to either directly or indirectly as part of a broader serialized and character-driven narrative

* They are produced and written to both be accessible to casual viewers and to simultaneously be aired in a sequentially progressive fashion

* Although they're most often entirely episodic, they occasionally go 100% serialized for a few episodes or part or all of a full season in service of a larger arc-narrative and in service of character development and progression

This very BBS is one of the very few sites where the term can even be found == and then, mostly in your posts. I only found the others because I Googled it, and the sites are fairly obscure to the general TV-viewing audience. It looks to be more a term used by TV critics than anything else.

I respectfully submit that it's not a valid argument, to assert that fans should give credit to Voyager, or Enterprise, or any other show, for meeting the criteria of an unrecognized sub-genre which they're unlikely ever to have heard of -- and to which the show itself never claimed to belong. And that it's not unreasonable for fans to judge the show in terms of its stated premise.

Moreover, even if one accepts the premise that Voyager should be judged within the framework of your sub-genre, surely there are better and worse programs within the sub-genre? You place it in the same grouping as Bones and Lucifer, both of which I'd argue are better than Voyager in terms of character development, linking interesting not-quite-standalone stories into the larger narrative, and use of recurring characters, and certainly not worse in terms of accessibility to casual viewers. It's not enough to simply assert that Voyager is a "serialized procedural" -- is it a good one? And that's still a separate question from: is it a good show?

And finally, I'm not sure why you think Voyager and Enterprise are clearly examples of this sub-genre, and TNG is clearly not. With the possible exception of the first item listed, all these criteria seem to me to apply to TNG as well.

 

[Lynx]

That's a failure of the fandom, not the show.

For what it was and what it did, Voyager was significantly more successful than it gets credit for and deserves far more credit than it gets, even and especially from some of the Trek fans who claim to enjoy it*.

* I'm including myself in this group because there was a point in my life and in my personal Trek fandom where I claimed to like Voyager*, but simultaneously couldn't accept it as it was.

I have to disagree with your statement about the fandom. As I see it, it's not a failure of the fandom but evidence of the strength of the fandom as thinking beings.

Star Trek fans are thinking fans. What they want most of all are good and believable stories in the context of adventures and space exploring, good, likeable and interesting characters, interesting villains and a good scenario with a good plot, premise and good background story for the show.

I can also add good explanations for certain events which takes place in the show and continuity in the storytelling.

OK, there are fans out there who accept only action and glosswork but that's not the majority of the Star Trek fans.

The thing about Star Trek is that, due to the the nature of the medium, changing premises is easy enough to do.
Tried of having to ration out 38 torpedoes? Trade for a hundred more photonic implosion warheads with a friendly alien race. Maybe Voyager has some bits of a Borg cube, or was able to mine some valuable ore.
Want to blow up another couple shuttles? Do what @Lynx suggests and start a shuttle construction team.
Got a Borg baby onboard but don't want to go any further with that? Have Janeway say that the child's homeworld was only a couple light years away, and she's back with her own people.
Just invent a reasonable explanation, and we'll be satisfied.

Which is exactly what I stated in my reply to DigificWriter above. Most of he Star Trek fans wants plausible and realistic explanations to what is going on, not just quick fixes with unrealistic explanations or no explanations at all.

I don't know what went wrong with the job Berman and his staff were doing when it comes to Voyager, especially if we consider the success of TNG where those people actually did a good job. maybe they were burned out after seven years of TNG and simply couldn't live up to the expectations of a series about a crew lost in space.

The biggets failures they did when it comes to Voyager was how hey handled things that didn't work, like the constant waste of shuttles and torpedoes, the Ocampa lifespan, how the food problem ceased to exist in season 4, the break-up between Kes and Neelix, the purpose of Harry Kim, the ship being shot almost to pieces and then totally restored in the next episode and some otherthings as well.

When something didn't work, they just ignored it and kept going like if the flaw never existed, like "ah don't bother, the viewers won't notice". But the viewers did notice!

And when there was another Star Trek series running at the same time where each and every strange event and even flaw was explained in the most realistic way available, no wonder that people started to compare what was going on in the both series, a comparision not to Voyager's advantage.

If you are a writer, then you have to know where the limits are when it comes to storytelling. If it is expected that the ship only have two shuttles and 39 torpedoes and those can't be replaced, then the writer have to adjust to that by either don't waste any shuttles and torpedoes and if wasting shuttles and a lot of torpedoes is necessary for a good story, then the writer must come up with a solution for that, like my little suggestion about the Shuttle and Torpedo Building team or so.

The same with the ship being almost shot to pieces in an episode like Deadlock and then look as good as new in the next episode, well either don't write such a scenario or let the ship look damaged for the next 4-5 episodes with some explanations thrown in about how they will manage to fix the problems.

I must admit that the DS9 writers had it easier there. They could at least bring in some Starfleet ships and personel to assist the station crew to rebuild damage parts of the station and order a bunch of shuttles and torpedoes to be brought in. But if Voyager is supposed to have limited resources, then they must stay with that premise and the limitations with it when it comes to writing. Or come up with a plausible scenario which is explained to the viewers.

The worst failure with the writers were that they couldn't handle what they had. I mean, they had a bunch of great and interesting characters but failed to develope and use most of them in the same way as the DS9 writers managed to do with their materiel.

Let's take my "favorite subject" Kes here. Some of those who dislike her claims that she was boring and bland. I must state that I disagree here.

But I admit that Kes could have been written much better. She had the potential to out-do Deanna Troi in most aspects (no offense to Troi who I actually like but Kes had more potential). Her mental abilities combined with her wit, courage and curiosity could have been used in a lot of ways which would have made the character even more interesting but it never happened. When she was dumped, the writers claimed "that they couldn't come up with good stories for the character" which was not true since they actually did come up with some good stories in the first three seasons. If there were any truth in the statement about "not being able to come up with good stories about her", then it was because the writers didn't even try. I mean, they couldn't even come up with a good and acceptable break-up story between her and Neelix. They realized that the relation didn't work but just let it float for almost one and a half season before they came up with that weird break-up in Warlord.

And it wasn't only Kes. In fact, Harry Kim suffered even more when it comes to bad writing, or more correctly lack of writing. Kes did at least have a couple of good episodes and scenarios during the years. Kim had Non Sequitur and Favorite Son.

Then look at the Voyager novels where Kim is actually doing something! OK, the scenario with Kim being badly injured and close to death occurs too many tmes in the book, as if his role as the "whipping boy" of the show is so clearly established that it can't be changed. But he's still a lot more interesting and useful in many of the books.

When seven arrived and more and less took over the show, Charaters like Chakotay, Paris, Torres, Tuvok and Neelix were shoved in the background too. They became as important as some of the DS9 background characters. In fact, even Nog, Rom and Leeta had more piece of the action than they had.

Some fans have stated that three main characters were enough for the show but I really had to disagree. Once again I have to look at DS) which had 10 main characters and lot of adventures and action for all of them. Not to mention excellent recurring characters like Garak, Nog, Dukat, Winn, Weyoun, Vic Fontaine, Rom and many others and no problem when it came to creating good scenarios and episodes with those characters.

Voyager's greatest flaw were the writers. With better writers, the show would have become a masterpiece. Now it became a good series with a lot of potential which was never really fulfilled.

 

[XCV330]

When seven arrived and more and less took over the show, Charaters like Chakotay, Paris, Torres, Tuvok and Neelix were shoved in the background too. They became as important as some of the DS9 background characters. In fact, even Nog, Rom and Leeta had more piece of the action than they had.

Some fans have stated that three main characters were enough for the show but I really had to disagree. Once again I have to look at DS) which had 10 main characters and lot of adventures and action for all of them. Not to mention excellent recurring characters like Garak, Nog, Dukat, Winn, Weyoun, Vic Fontaine, Rom and many others and no problem when it came to creating good scenarios and episodes with those characters.

Voyager's greatest flaw were the writers. With better writers, the show would have become a masterpiece. Now it became a good series with a lot of potential which was never really fulfilled.

I agree. I read somewhere that when it was in production, the writers for Leave it to Beaver were instructed not to make it too funny. Jokes were dialed down or scrapped. The show was intended to be fairly bland tv comfort food. And it worked.

Voyager had an excellent premise, but they opted to make it Star Trek Comfort Food instead, going the safe route and constantly trying to make it a lesser TNG, because they felt audiences wanted that, and it was easy to do. So they avoided the maquis/Starfleet dynamic. They did not let Kes develop enough as a character (except in Fury, and it was too much too late) , nor Chakotay, or many of the others. In later seasons they relied heavily on EMH and Seven. It's hard to blame them on one hand, as it worked, and kept the show running to the conclusion, but it could have been much more than it was.

They made the same mistake immediately after when ENT became TNG with baggier uniforms and darker rooms.

 

[Summer Solstice]

The biggets failures they did when it comes to Voyager was how hey handled things that didn't work, like the constant waste of shuttles and torpedoes, the Ocampa lifespan, how the food problem ceased to exist in season 4, the break-up between Kes and Neelix, the purpose of Harry Kim, the ship being shot almost to pieces and then totally restored in the next episode and some otherthings as well.

I think Kes fixed the food problem by doing an incredible job with setting up hydroponics. The time between Kes starting hydroponics and vegetables appearing in the mess hall is about 40 days (I think, I might be wrong) and I can't think of any vegetables that grow that quickly. By season 4 they probably grew enough food.

On the delta flyers, they asked Ethan Philips about the break-up between Kes and Neelix. He said they filmed 6 pages of script of a break-up scene. He couldn't remember which episode it was supposed to go in but it was cut for length. It would be really cool if it still exists somewhere.

 

[Oddish]

It's not enough to simply assert that Voyager is a "serialized procedural" -- is it a good one? And that's still a separate question from: is it a good show?

Three questions...
1. Is it a serialized procedural? Yes, your description seems about right.

2. Is it a good one? In terms of technical quality... well, it's all right. It abandoned its basic premise to conform to something more resembling TNG, and the sloppy execution showed a lack of respect for the audience. But setting that aside, it has characters you want to root for, and tells good stories.

3. Is it a good show? That's subjective. If you can appreciate it for what it is, and not expect it to be more, yes. If you can overlook the questionable decisions by the writers, yes.

Remember that mass appeal has a quality all its own: the latest Avengers movies might not be as good as "Citizen Kane"... but even if released today, the latter would not gross two billion dollars.

 

[Lynx]

I agree. I read somewhere that when it was in production, the writers for Leave it to Beaver were instructed not to make it too funny. Jokes were dialed down or scrapped. The show was intended to be fairly bland tv comfort food. And it worked.

Voyager had an excellent premise, but they opted to make it Star Trek Comfort Food instead, going the safe route and constantly trying to make it a lesser TNG, because they felt audiences wanted that, and it was easy to do. So they avoided the maquis/Starfleet dynamic. They did not let Kes develop enough as a character (except in Fury, and it was too much too late) , nor Chakotay, or many of the others. In later seasons they relied heavily on EMH and Seven. It's hard to blame them on one hand, as it worked, and kept the show running to the conclusion, but it could have been much more than it was.

They made the same mistake immediately after when ENT became TNG with baggier uniforms and darker rooms.

Honestly, I could have lived without that horrible crap episode in season 6 where they did all they could to destroy the character Kes. That insulting piece of s**t episode should never have been made.

There were some hints in season 3 about Kes becoming a more important character on the ship but all was wasted when they decided to dump her.

As for the Starfleet/Maquis relations, I'm happy that they didn't make it like the horrible Stargate Universe where there was a constant bickering between the factions of the ship in each and every episode.

Otherwise I agree with you. Voyager had good characters which could have been much better with better writing.

As for ENT, that was the biggest mistake ever made in Star Trek because it ruined what could have been a continuing development of series set in the 24th century.

They had this wonderful universe wihci had been created during TNG, DS9 and VOY with a lot of planets, species and everything plus lots of loose ends to follow up. And what did they do? They made a retro series which was awful only because berman and Braga had chips on their shoulders considering Roddenberry and TOS and they were out to do "TOS the way they thought TOS should have been done".

I mean, if they really wanted to do a retro series, they should have done it like it was in TOS with TOS uniforms, ships, computers etc. Just like the Tribble episode in DS9 where Sisko and the others travel back in time and actually meets Kirk, Spock and the others. That was a masterpiece!

Instead they come up with the half-witted crew in an environment which looks more like Voyager or some humanoid species that Voyager could have encountered. Not to mention how they messed up existing Trek history with it. As a result we then got the NuTrek movies, the horrible Discovery and Picard 20 years too late and too much of 2020's dystopy in it.

I think Kes fixed the food problem by doing an incredible job with setting up hydroponics. The time between Kes starting hydroponics and vegetables appearing in the mess hall is about 40 days (I think, I might be wrong) and I can't think of any vegetables that grow that quickly. By season 4 they probably grew enough food.

On the delta flyers, they asked Ethan Philips about the break-up between Kes and Neelix. He said they filmed 6 pages of script of a break-up scene. He couldn't remember which episode it was supposed to go in but it was cut for length. It would be really cool if it still exists somewhere.

The silly thing is that the food problem was never ever mentioned and the Hydroponics bay was restored to some Dracula's den for the Borg on the ship. So what happened with the food problem?

As for the kes-neelix break-up, it should have taken place during 2-3 episodes after Parturition and better presented, not that stupid thing with Kes breaking up with Neeilx while being controlled by Tieran and no more explanations whatsoever. But relations weren't Berman's and Braga's best things when it acame to writing.

 

[Oddish]

have to disagree with your statement about the fandom. As I see it, it's not a failure of the fandom but evidence of the strength of the fandom as thinking beings.

Precisely. And if you want to write Trek without pissing us off, you'd better assume that we'll pay attention.

The [biggest] failures they did when it comes to Voyager was how hey handled things that didn't work, like the constant waste of shuttles and torpedoes, the Ocampa lifespan, how the food problem ceased to exist in season 4, the break-up between Kes and Neelix, the purpose of Harry Kim, the ship being shot almost to pieces and then totally restored in the next episode and some other things as well.

When something didn't work, they just ignored it and kept going like if the flaw never existed, like "ah don't bother, the viewers won't notice". But the viewers did notice!

Yes. And sadly, given the flexibility of the medium, the "ah, don't bother" mentality wasn't necessary. Just technobabble in the change you want!

And it wasn't only Kes. In fact, Harry Kim suffered even more when it comes to bad writing, or more correctly lack of writing. Kes did at least have a couple of good episodes and scenarios during the years. Kim had Non Sequitur and Favorite Son.

Given how badly Harry was used the rest of the series, it arguably would have been more productive to end "Non Sequitur" with him realizing that there was no way back and move on. Drink Vulcan mocha, make lieutenant, marry Libby, make babies, get on with his life. If someone gotta be duh ensign (arguably the most ridiculous thing ever said by a Trek showrunner), put a uniform on Kes or Neelix.

Voyager's greatest flaw were the writers. With better writers, the show would have become a masterpiece. Now it became a good series with a lot of potential which was never really fulfilled.

agree. I read somewhere that when it was in production, the writers for Leave it to Beaver were instructed not to make it too funny. Jokes were dialed down or scrapped. The show was intended to be fairly bland tv comfort food. And it worked.

You can have it both ways, too. Basically, run Voyager like you did. But put in the necessary explanations and dialogue changes to wipe out the inconsistencies. Here's how to neatly dispose of nine or ten of them:
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/how-to-resolve-6-voyager-inconsistencies-in-85-seconds.309089/

Honestly, I could have lived without that horrible crap episode in season 6 where they did all they could to destroy the character Kes. That insulting piece of s**t episode should never have been made.

And the scenes in "Unimatrix Zero" and "Nightingale" where the writers deliberately rubbed our nose in the fact that "we're not gonna promote Harry and you can't make us, ha ha ha" were no less distasteful.

The silly thing is that the food problem was never ever mentioned and the Hydroponics bay was restored to some Dracula's den for the Borg on the ship. So what happened with the food problem?

Multiple cargo bays? Voyager was 343 meters long, after all. That as big as an aircraft carrier, but with less than 3% of the crew size. Maybe that's also why they could carry so many shuttles.

 

[DigificWriter]

If you can appreciate it for what it is, and not expect it to be more, yes. If you can overlook the questionable decisions by the writers, yes

That's the core point I was trying to make.

Voyager fans (and Trek fans in general) spend too much time criticizing Voyager for what it wasn't (or what they think it should have been) instead of celebrating what it was, warts and all.

 

[Oddish]

I guess my core point is that I don't mind warts per se.

I guess an analogy is that you're sending your six-year-old off to school, and you see that he's got a wart on his nose and jam from his breakfast all over his cheeks. You don't really see any need to bother with the wart, but you beckon him over and spend fifteen seconds cleaning his face with a wet rag. The inconsistencies on Voyager were like that: not a deal breaker, but they could have been addressed easily.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ You're not accepting the warts, though, because you're letting your criticisms of things that the show wasn't consistent with or things that you wanted it to do differently overshadow everything else about it and how you talk about it.

Too many Voyager fans spend more energy complaining about the series than they do talking about the stories it told and the characters it gave us, IMO, which diminishes the series and its reputation.

 

[Oddish]

That is true. But given it's high rewatch rate, that suggests that they enjoy the "comfort Trek" it offers.

Bottom line: I am more or less Ok with the decision to walk away from the premises of what made the show unique (deprivation, intra-crew conflict) and present a more TNG-ish product. But getting past the sheer sloppiness of how they did it... not so easy.

 

[gweeps]

On the delta flyers, they asked Ethan Philips about the break-up between Kes and Neelix. He said they filmed 6 pages of script of a break-up scene. He couldn't remember which episode it was supposed to go in but it was cut for length. It would be really cool if it still exists somewhere.

Apparently it was for 'Fair Trade'.

Random question: why did Kes suddenly have long hair after 'Before and After'? Wasn't that from the future? Strange continuity issue.

 

[at Quark's]

Well, technically she was still the Kes that traveled through that future, so she would have those memories and she could simply have concluded: hey, I like future-me's hairdo! Let's go with that from now on.

(* We know she still has those memories because she also promises Janeway to make a report on those Krenim they would meet later).

 

[Oddish]

Remember that in "The Gift", Seven went from zero to full head of hair instantly, and the Doc explained that he had stimulated her hair follicles. So, a person can presumably grow hair very quickly if they choose to.

 

[at Quark's]

^ Not to mention that Kes only lives nine years, she could therefore have a far quicker metabolism (and body functions such as hair growth) too.

 

[Oddish]

Given that Voyager is not known to have a barber, one does wonder how all the male crew kept their hair so short and neat. Even the Maquis looked more "recruiting poster" than "rogue warrior".

 

[at Quark's]

I would expect a barber isn't really necessary in the 24th century if all you're interested in is the resulting haircut- technology should be advanced enough to do without. You would expect the transporter or replicator to be able to beam the desired haircut onto you even if nothing else existed. Having a barber aboard (such as on the ENT-D) is probably just a luxury social function.

 

[Trekker4747]

I totally agree with your comments.

As for DS9, one of the best aspects with that show is that the recurring characters, such as Garak, Nog, Rom, Weyoun, Dukat and many others were so incredibly good. Voyager should have had more good recurring characters.

DS9 also had the best villains ever in any series. Dukat and Wweyoun are incredible. And the female changeling! So incredible mean but so good as villain. I really hated that character which means that her appearance really achieved what she was supposed to do.

As for the shuttle and torpedoes, this is what should have been included in some episode, most likely The 37's:


Stardate 48942.07 (Friday 10 December 2371)

The latest events have put us in a difficult situation since we have wasted a lot of torpedoes and damaged a shuttle. Therefore I have asked Commander Chakotay, Liutenant Tuvok and Lieutenant Torres to come to my ready room to discuss an idea I have.

"You all know what has happened" said Janeway. "After the recent adventure with the Furies (Voyager book "The Final Fury" which took place between the episodes "Elogium" and "Twisted"), we have lost a shuttle. We have also wasted too many torpedoes. If we keep on wasting our torpedoes in the same way, we will be out of them soon. Considering our long journey and the risk of running into hostile aliens, we need both shuttles and torpedoes. Therefore I want to discuss this idea I have."

"What would that be?" Chakotay asked.

"I suggest that we set up a special workforce on the ship" Janeway said. "The Shuttle and Torpedo Building Team". "Some really skilled people who can have as their priority to build shuttles and torpedoes when it's necessary. If we do so, we will have a chance to avoid being without those in a critical situation."

"That sounds like a good idea", Chakotay said.

"Indeed. And a very logical idea too considering our need for such items" Tuvok said.

"Exactly my thoughts too", said Janeway. "B'Elanna, do you have any people to spare?"

"Well, I think that Dalby, Henley, Gerron and Chell would be perfect for the job. And I would also like to have Lt. Carey in charge of the team. He's the right person for that. If necessary, I can give a helping hand too in a crisis. But I must point out that I need these people in Engineering too and that they would only work with shuttles and torpedoes when necessary."

"I agree", Janeway said. "I would also suggest that we find some other people too among the crew who can assist with shuttle and torpedo building when necessary". Janeway touched her combadge: "Mr Carey, can you come to my ready room immediately!"

And so The Shuttle and Torpedo Building Team was born. From the beginning, it was Lt.Carey, Dalby, Henley, Gerron and Chell. Later on Rollins, Vorik, Samantha Wildman and The Borg baby were added to the team. In fact, those people are the true heroes on Voyager. Without their hard work, Voyager's mission would have been almost impossible.

OK, the comment about The Borg Baby is a joke but the rest is what should have been.

You wouldn't even need all that dialogue just one or two lines referencing the existence of such a team would be all that was needed.

 

[Akiraprise]

Random question: why did Kes suddenly have long hair after 'Before and After'? Wasn't that from the future? Strange continuity issue.

Jennifer developed an allergy to the glue they used on her ears is one of the reasons I believe.