The Rank of Commodore?

[C.E. Evans]

Timo said:
Hmm... Kirk readily gave Starfleet uniforms to civilians: Charlie Evans (although his old-style pullover was probably Antares fare), John Christopher (not Starfleet, even if not strictly civilian in his own opinion), Khan Singh...

But that practice seemed to stop in Picard's era though. It was not uncommon to hand out combadges to civilians like candy, but uniforms seemed like a big deal.

In Kosinski's case, his association with Starfleet might be that he indeed works for Starfleet but only as a propulsion specialist and that his insignia is unique only to such special personnel. As a hologram specialist, Lewis Zimmerman might have worn a similar insignia at one point...

 

[Star Wolf]

Commodore said:
This is a silly discussion. The rank was not eliminated. "Commodore," as some have said, is an obsolete naval term for what is now called "Rear Admiral Lower Half." It is a one-star admiral, equivalent to a one-star general (called "Brigadier General") in the army.

Thus...

A Commodore is a type of Admiral. We have likely seen them on TNG/DS9, but just didn't know it since they are called "Admiral" for short just like the other Admiral ranks.

One can assume that Commodore Decker, seen in TOS, was a Rear Admiral Lower Half who preferred to be referred to as "Commodore." I know I would, if I were a Rear Admiral Lower Half. It sounds cooler.

Thus, my username.

The only problem is that lower half admirals wear rank insignia indistinguishable from their upper half peers

 

[Timo]

Not in Starfleet. In TOS, there is the sleeve braid of Decker, Stone et al., nicely one step below Kirk's Rear Admiral. In TNG, the first season pipless people would all be Rear Admirals (LH) (although I prefer to think that Starfleet would never use such a monstrosity of a name), while the one-pip people would be Rear Admiral (UH), two-pippers would be Vice Admiral and so forth. That is, the pips in early TNG would be analogous to the narrow braid of TOS (and the TOS movies and ENT), while the embroidered collar triangle would be the equivalent of the broad braid of TOS/TFS/ENT.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[J.T.B.]

So the shoulder [TMP] tabs would show rank and division for everyone below RAdm but change to something completely different at that grade?

Not everyone, as none of the long-sleeve uniforms below flag rank use epaulets for indicating rank.

Sure they do. When Kirk's first sees Uhura on the bridge, she is wearing a long-sleeve one-piece uniform with shoulder rank only. Likewise Decker in engineering. Sulu wears some kind of long sleeved jacket with shoulder rank only.

Leaving admirals without rank insignia for short sleeve uniforms? That doesn't seem likely at all.

In this setup, a short-sleeve uniform would simply have a different configuration, just as with the line rank uniforms. The one motif with TMP uniforms is a move away from the simplicity of TOS and towards seemingly needless complexity, perhaps in hopes of catering for the costuming needs of sequels. But if there's any logic there, it would be not duplicating the rank markers, always going for "OR" rather than "AND".

But the shoulder insignia that we see are the same on long sleeve and short sleeve uniforms, and, in a modified form, on the field jacket. It is true that Kirk's uniform is the only one to have both shoulder and sleeve rank markings, but I always took that as just a way to fancy-up the dress uniform. If different admiral tabs are used for short sleeved shirts, what would the insignia be? Miniature versions of the sleeve stripes, as the other officers use, would get crowded and hard to read. Since Kirk's admiral tabs are the same size, color, location etc. as the other officers' rank/division insignia, it seems very unlikely that they are something different.

This is a silly discussion. The rank was not eliminated. "Commodore," as some have said, is an obsolete naval term for what is now called "Rear Admiral Lower Half." It is a one-star admiral, equivalent to a one-star general (called "Brigadier General") in the army.

In the US Navy, the rank was eliminated. The title is still used for certain positions like destroyer squadron commanders or expeditionary strike group commanders. Their actual rank is captain.

Britain, Canada, Australia, India and most navies with British roots use commodore as a rank.

The only problem is that lower half admirals wear rank insignia indistinguishable from their upper half peers

I may have missed your meaning, but if you're referring to the US Navy, that changed in the 1980s. RAdm LH now uses the same insignia formerly used for commodores. The only difference is that RAdm LH has a regular rectangular flag with one star, while the commodores' flag had a forked end. If you look at the current USN flag bios, you will notice that "upper" and "lower" are not used, the only way to tell the difference is from the insignia in the photo.

--Justin

 

[Red Ranger]

Something else I'd like to point out. There is one instance in TNG where a character refers to the rank "commodore" -- it's Geordi. He uses it in what seemed to me a pejorative, sarcastic sense. In the ep where he's trapped on a hostile world with a Romulan, before his captor introduces himself, Geordi keeps calling him "commodore," as in "I never lie when I have sand in my shoes, commodore." This to me indicates it may be considered a title by the 24th century, much as another poster pointed out is the current usage in the U.S. Navy for certain commands, not an actual rank. And Geordi's usage of it may also indicate it's considered an archaic rank. -- RR

 

[Red Ranger]

Star Wolf said:

Commodore said:
This is a silly discussion. The rank was not eliminated. "Commodore," as some have said, is an obsolete naval term for what is now called "Rear Admiral Lower Half." It is a one-star admiral, equivalent to a one-star general (called "Brigadier General") in the army.

Thus...

A Commodore is a type of Admiral. We have likely seen them on TNG/DS9, but just didn't know it since they are called "Admiral" for short just like the other Admiral ranks.

One can assume that Commodore Decker, seen in TOS, was a Rear Admiral Lower Half who preferred to be referred to as "Commodore." I know I would, if I were a Rear Admiral Lower Half. It sounds cooler.

Thus, my username.

The only problem is that lower half admirals wear rank insignia indistinguishable from their upper half peers

Do you mean in Stafleet or in the modern-day Navy? If the latter, that's incorect. A rear admiral, lower half is a one-star admiral, while a rear admiral, upper half, wears two stars. And it seemed to me there were rank distinctions in TNG, albeit not always articulated. We never saw the sleeve braid of one of the few admirals shown in TOS, but it was probably similiar to the modern U.S. Navy sleeve braid system. -- RR

 

[James Wright]

In TOS and the first 6 movies could a Commodore be a squadron commander?

JDW

 

[MarianLH]

JDW said:
In TOS and the first 6 movies could a Commodore be a squadron commander?

JDW

Who knows? All we can say for sure is that we never saw one on screen.


Marian

 

[James Wright]

We maay have, in "The Ultimate Computer" there are 4 starships under the command of Commodore Wesley.

JDW

 

[J.T.B.]

JDW said:
In TOS and the first 6 movies could a Commodore be a squadron commander?

Could be, but apparentlly not always. Stone and Mendez could have been squadron commanders who worked from a starbase, which would be fine: ComSubRon and ComDesRon are administrative "shore" jobs today. Decker... a little harder to explain where the rest of his ships were, but Constellation could have been on detached duty, with Decker handling administrative details by subspace. Wesley would be a straightforward task group commander. But I really can't buy Stocker, with no starship experience, commanding a group of experienced starship captains as their squadron commodore. That would be asking for trouble.

--Justin

 

[James Wright]

Stocker probably worked a desk job, something to do with running a starbase.

JDW

 

[Red Ranger]

JDW said:
Stocker probably worked a desk job, something to do with running a starbase.

JDW

Pretty sure that was the case. When Stocker takes command of Enterprise, Kirk is outraged and says to Spock, "Stocker? Are you crazy? The man's a chair-bound paper pusher!" And if you also remember, he did wear ship's services red. The only other commodore to wear red was Stone in "Court Martial." -- RR

 

[C.E. Evans]

I always saw that a commodore was really more of a senior captain than a "junior admiral" and like other officers, there were line and staff positions for that rank from all branches of Starfleet. Stocker was supposedly on his way to take command of Starbase 10, which may have been either a line or staff position depending on how Starfleet classified that particular outpost. On the otherhand, Starbase 10 may have been Stocker's return or first time as a line officer after spending most of his career behind a desk in administration.

In the case of Matt Decker, I'm more inclined to believe that the only ship he commanded was the Constellation, but his authority allowed him to take command of an assembled taskforce whenever it was necessary. That might have been true for Commodore Wesley too...

 

[mada101]

In real-life navies, one-star flag officers have many different names. 'Commodore' is used by the Royal Navy and the navies of most of the Commonwealth countries (plus a few others). The US used to use Commodore, but it was dropped in the 1980s in favour of the rather silly 'Rear Admiral Lower Half'. Commodore is still used in the US Navy as a title (not a rank) for a senior captain, but it is not a flag rank.

However, many other navies have other one-star titles. 'Counter Admiral' is used in Russia and many European navies. Germany/Belgium/Denmark/Finland/Sweden use 'Flotilla Admiral'.

Now, in Starfleet, matters are quite different. We know for certain that in the ENT, TOS and TAS eras, Commodore was a one-pin flag officer, rating directly above Captain (or Fleet Captain, but that's another argument altogether). We saw many flag officers holding the rank (Forrest, Decker, Mendez, Stone, April etc). The rank also certainly existed in the TMP era, as it was mentioned in radio chatter at the beginning of the first movie. The behind-the-scenes design info also listed it as being one-pin flag, and one of the costume designers even wrote a letter to Roddenberry reminding him that the rank existed, and that Kirk should be promoted to Commodore instead of taking the two (or perhaps three) leaps up to Rear Admiral.

From TWoK onwards, the rank was never mentioned in the movies, though there was a pin designed for it by the costume department and it did appear on screen in 'Star Trek IV'. But by TNG, the rank was never ever mentioned, and it appeared that one-pin flag was now some kind of Admiral grade (though only in the strange Season 1 flag uniforms). The rank was also briefly mentioned by Geordie La Forge in TNG 'The Enemy', but it is unclear as to whether he was referring to the Starfleet rank or not.

There has never been any evidence to suggest that, in Trek, a Commodore is merely a title or just a senior captain. In all appearances, it has been in the one-flag position. In my own personal canon, I believe that the rank is still around in the same role during the TNG era, choosing to overlook Admirals Jameson and Quinn, whose rank insignia was strange and of a type never used again (I'd imagine that they were of the two-star grade...which makes sense, as Quinn was going to promote Picard, and he wouldn't be able to promote him to the same rank as him if he was a one-pin himself).

 

[aridas sofia]

Specialist Ranks
Crewman
Technician
Specialist
Chief

Administrative Ranks
Ensign
Junior Lieutenant
Lieutenant
Lieutenant Commander

Command Ranks
Commander
Captain
Fleet Captain
Commodore

Fleet Ranks
Rear Admiral
Vice Admiral
Admiral
Fleet Admiral

This is the way I envision the rank structure. Specialist ranks carry out the work, administrative ranks supervise, command ranks are in charge of the detached assignments like ships, bases and task forces, and fleet ranks run the central commands -- those close to sources of political authority.

The uppermost ranks in each group take on some of the responsibilities of the next level -- chiefs have direct supervision of specialist crew, lieutenant commanders are department heads, commodores command multi-ship or multi-base groups.

A commodore would logically have a man below him to run his ship so he could focus on the group command, while a fleet captain would have to do both jobs. This fits with what we saw of Wesley, but not with Decker. That script makes it quite clear he is in command of his ship. Of course, there are such things as exceptions to rules, and we could have been seeing him during a time he was forced to take direct command until a new captain was assigned, or having been demoted in fact if not in rank.

It is a very different structure from the modern U.S. Navy, and focuses on the need, confronting the vast expanse of space, for a considerable component of command expertise in the "mid level". In my mind, there would be a lot of officers of command rank, but very few of fleet rank.

The difference would explain why an officer like Kirk, promoted to central command, would skip several ranks and become an admiral. The ranks explain the job you do as much as your position in a hierarchy.

 

[Commodore]

Fleet Captain does not exist as a rank in Starfleet in ANY canonical materials.

 

[Unicron]

True, unfortunately it's never been clarified canonically. I personally like the idea of it being a separate rank, because I can see it fitting into the insignia schemes and I can picture a specific role for such an officer (FASA's RPG suggested an entirely different role).

Some have suggested that it's really just another way of referring to a captain, but I don't see why they wouldn't simply say it that way. Both times it was used in TOS gave the impression it might be a rank, even if that was unintentional.

 

[aridas sofia]

Fleet Captain does not exist as a rank in Starfleet in ANY canonical materials.

The fact that modern Trek says "fleet captain" (or commodore) is a title and not a rank is an interesting sidenote. However, it adds nothing to the point I was making, which was to give meaning within the context of necessity to two naval designations that are more often titles than ranks, but in the case of Starfleet would make sense as ranks.

Also, I am interpreting the usage within the context of Roddenberry's Trek and no more, so do with that what you will. In TOS it is not at all clear whether fleet captain is a rank or a title, and the matter is only clarified to any degree by Fletcher and the NeoTreks. I think the same ahistorical mindset that dispensed with "commodore" did away with "fleet captain" as well -- people that were not aware or ignored the fact that there were naval precedents for both being used or considered as ranks. These presentists did not seem to consider how a system evolved from the contemporary navy, and not absolutely tied to it, would fill the needs of a widely dispersed space fleet better than the exact system used by modern sea fleets.

 

[mada101]

There is scarcely any evidence either way for Fleet Captain in Trek:

It's a rank:
- Kirk clearly states that Pike was promoted to Fleet Captain, not merely given it as a title.
- When Kirk makes an error in calling Garth of Izar just 'Captain', he quickly corrects himself to 'Fleet Captain'.
- Within the context of 'The Menagerie', it suits the story: he outranks Kirk, but not Commodore Mendez.
- It has been a rank used historically in the Royal Navy (briefly), the German Navy (also briefly) and it is currently a rank in maritime yachting clubs.

It's a title:
- The sign on Pike's door in 'The Menagerie' reads only as 'Captain Christopher Pike'.
- The US Navy did propose it as a rank before the use of Commodore (which, ironically, they later dropped), and then later as a rank for aircraft carrier commanders in between Captain and Commodore (much like its supposed use in Trek). But, otherwise, with the exception of a few brief time periods, world navies have only ever used it as a temporary rank for captains that have to command multiple ships if there is no flag officer available.

Personally, I have no problem with it being a Starfleet rank. It makes sense - need a fleet commanded but don't want to give someone flag officer powers? Fleet Captain.

 

[HRHTheKING]

If there was a rank between "Captain" and "Commander" in Starfleet, what would it be?