The Rank of Commodore?
- Thread starter James Wright
- Start date
There's got to be something that sounds better.
Commandant
Or, if you want to stick with naval tradition, possibly something like "Master Commander".
Or, if you want to stick with naval tradition, possibly something like "Master Commander".
I would go with Vice Captain myself.
^ I like "Vice Captain".
Rear Admirals have the worst rank.
Poor guys
Poor guys
I don't think this happens quite that way. Rather, the words "Fleet Captain" are used thrice in the episode, every time in the fuller context of "Starship Fleet Captain". Which could simply mean "Captain in the starship fleet" as opposed to "Captain in the corvette fleet" or "merchant fleet" or other less prestigious and responsible position.
The first time the words are spoken, it's by Garth himself, disguised as asylum manager Cory, and calling his supposed patient "Garth of Izar, a former starship fleet captain".
When Kirk speaks the words, it's in a context calling for Garth to remember his responsibilities: "How could you, a starship fleet captain, believe that a Federation crew would blindly obey your [downright crazy] order..?"
Then it's time for Spock to chime in. Kirk begins with "Captain Garth-", Garth himself yells "LORD Garth!", and Spock calmly corrects him: "No, sir. Captain Garth, starship fleet captain. That's an honorable title."
The balance of evidence in this episode IMHO goes for "Captain" being the rank and "starship fleet captain" being the job description. The balance is different in "The Menagerie", because it would be a bit superfluous to describe Pike's job to Kirk, whereas it is reasonable to describe Garth's job to himself when he has lost track of his duties. It's nevertheless quite possible that Pike would hold the same exact rank as Kirk, especially as Mendez time and again reminds Kirk how similar the two are/were.
And certainly "Captain" is the rank most in need of "clarification" in both formal and informal speech, as both the informed and the uninformed may be at a loss to decide whether the word refers to a commanding position on a vessel or to a rung on the rank ladder. "Fleet Captain" for Pike might specify that he is no mere merchant skipper - and we might even deduce that he has indeed formerly commanded non-Fleet vessels, making the distinction especially useful when discussing his promotion.
In the broader context of TOS, I'd see "Whom Gods Destroy" as a skilled retcon of the "The Menagerie" goof on this rank/title. The latter episode neatly transforms what was in the former intended as an atypical rank into what is a reasonable and context-fitting title.
Timo Saloniemi
But it does! Commodore would be the lowest flag rank, and flag rank is denoted with broad braid in all known examples. Thus, Commodore would have broad plus zero narrow, Rear Admiral would have broad plus one narrow, etc.
Giving three narrow braid to Commodore would demote that rank to the category of line ranks...
(To be truly systematic, the TOS scheme should in fact denote Captain with three narrow braid, and either omit the two narrow, one broken, or then dedicate it to a new, fictional rank between Commander and Captain.)
Timo Saloniemi
Giving three narrow braid to Commodore would demote that rank to the category of line ranks...
(To be truly systematic, the TOS scheme should in fact denote Captain with three narrow braid, and either omit the two narrow, one broken, or then dedicate it to a new, fictional rank between Commander and Captain.)
Timo Saloniemi
The rank structure is kind of odd all together. A better system would be something like this:
Kirk - Commander (Because he commands the ship)
Spock - Executive Officer, Captain
McCoy - Doctor (either no rank, or rank of Captain because he's the department head)
Scotty - Captain of Engineering
Sulu - Lieutenant or high non-com rank, Chief Science Officer
Chekov - Lieutenant or high non-com rank, Tactical Chief
Uhura - Lieutenant or high non-com rank, Linguistics Specialist
And then have yeoman officers handle tasks like communications, navigation, operations, etc.
Kirk - Commander (Because he commands the ship)
Spock - Executive Officer, Captain
McCoy - Doctor (either no rank, or rank of Captain because he's the department head)
Scotty - Captain of Engineering
Sulu - Lieutenant or high non-com rank, Chief Science Officer
Chekov - Lieutenant or high non-com rank, Tactical Chief
Uhura - Lieutenant or high non-com rank, Linguistics Specialist
And then have yeoman officers handle tasks like communications, navigation, operations, etc.
^ Well, yes, ideally Starfleet wouldn't use any military rank scheme. But it's always followed (more or less) the US Navy scheme. A lot of what you've suggested there are titles, not ranks. It's also possible that you've used Army rank titles (like Captain in the Army being lower than Commander in the Navy).
^ Or if fleet captain is only a title, it makes no sense why captain wouldn't be three solid stripes instead of having the center broken stripe. That's one reason I like the concept of FC being a rank, since it fits that insignia scheme nicely. One version I've seen for the post-commodore flag ranks is:
Rear admiral: As commodore, with a third stripe in the center. So alternatively it would look like fleet captain with gold mesh between the stripes instead of the plain uniform.
Vice admiral: As rear admiral, with one stripe added above the group of broad stripes.
Admiral: As vice admiral, with two stripes above the broad stripes.
Fleet Admiral: As admiral, but with the gold mesh between the top two stripes as well. So, basically five stripes with gold mesh between them.
Fleet captain also easily fits into the other insignia systems. I'm not sure about TMP, but for the other movies I've seen a captain's pin with extra triangles on the left and right, while captain only has them at top and bottom. For modern Trek it would be five pips, with commodores having a boxed single pip.
Rear admiral: As commodore, with a third stripe in the center. So alternatively it would look like fleet captain with gold mesh between the stripes instead of the plain uniform.
Vice admiral: As rear admiral, with one stripe added above the group of broad stripes.
Admiral: As vice admiral, with two stripes above the broad stripes.
Fleet Admiral: As admiral, but with the gold mesh between the top two stripes as well. So, basically five stripes with gold mesh between them.
Fleet captain also easily fits into the other insignia systems. I'm not sure about TMP, but for the other movies I've seen a captain's pin with extra triangles on the left and right, while captain only has them at top and bottom. For modern Trek it would be five pips, with commodores having a boxed single pip.
^ or Luther Sloan underline four pips
Why "post-Commodore"?
ENT and TOS already had systems of stripes that included Commodore and a number of other flag ranks. We only barely glimpsed these cuff markings, but they did exist. TOS had a system where narrow braid was added outside the broad gold mesh (one above and one below marked Fitzpatrick's unspecified Admiral rank, which we can speculate to have been Vice Admiral), and as such was compatible with TMP. ENT had broad silver braid with colored stripes in between to create much the same effect (Vice Admiral Forrest had two narrow sections separated from the broad one by these color bands, analogous to the cuffs of Fitzpatrick).
Those systems were easier to the eye at a distance: even though the TOS uniforms weren't as dark as the ENT and usual naval ones, there was enough contrast to tell apart and count the narrow braid at a glance. This would be much more difficult if all flag ranks had the same broad material with varying numbers of decorative braid on top.
Timo Saloniemi
ENT and TOS already had systems of stripes that included Commodore and a number of other flag ranks. We only barely glimpsed these cuff markings, but they did exist. TOS had a system where narrow braid was added outside the broad gold mesh (one above and one below marked Fitzpatrick's unspecified Admiral rank, which we can speculate to have been Vice Admiral), and as such was compatible with TMP. ENT had broad silver braid with colored stripes in between to create much the same effect (Vice Admiral Forrest had two narrow sections separated from the broad one by these color bands, analogous to the cuffs of Fitzpatrick).
Those systems were easier to the eye at a distance: even though the TOS uniforms weren't as dark as the ENT and usual naval ones, there was enough contrast to tell apart and count the narrow braid at a glance. This would be much more difficult if all flag ranks had the same broad material with varying numbers of decorative braid on top.
Timo Saloniemi
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