Is there any on screen proof that there are 2 ranks for Rear Admiral in TNG, DS9 or Voyager? If there is I feel sorry for the people who hold the rank of Rear Admiral(Lower Half)!
JDW
JDW
The Rank of Commodore?
- Thread starter James Wright
- Start date
Absolutely no proof for that exact claim. But yes, possible proof (or at least possible interpreation) that there is a rank lower than Rear Admiral that still gets addressed as "Admiral" - namely, all the pipless Admirals of TNG Season 1. When we finally see in "Conspiracy" that the higher flag ranks get one or two pips in addition to the strange triangular braid of these no-pippers, we are rather tempted to think that the braid means lowest Admiral, the braid plus one pip means Rear Admiral, the braid plus two pips is Vice Admiral and so forth...
Or if the pips of Season 1 mean the same as those of the later seasons, then we have Rear Admiral at two pips, and two other ranks addressed as "Admiral" below that.
I very much doubt Starfleet would call that lowest rank or those lowest ranks "Rear Admiral, Lower Half", though. There are zillions of better names to choose from out there.
Timo Saloniemi
Or if the pips of Season 1 mean the same as those of the later seasons, then we have Rear Admiral at two pips, and two other ranks addressed as "Admiral" below that.
I very much doubt Starfleet would call that lowest rank or those lowest ranks "Rear Admiral, Lower Half", though. There are zillions of better names to choose from out there.
Timo Saloniemi
Is the braid in TOS rank of Commodore wider than the braid used for the lower ranks? In the few pictures I've been able to find it looks wider.
JDW
JDW
We also have to remember Captain Ramart in 'Charlie X'. He (and his First Officer, Lieutenant Tom Nellis) wore the older uniforms and sported the pilot rank insignia. I've always argued that Ramart was actually a Commander by rank (since he commands a ship of only 20 crew!), which would fit the evidence in later shows that, like in real-life navies, not all captains are actually Captains (Lt. Cmdr Markel in TAS 'Eye of the Beholder', Lt. Cmdr Pierce in DS9 'Second Sight' and Lt. Cmdr Jadzia Dax during the Dominion War were all starship captains).
As for the TNG Season 1 rank scheme, it's true that we actually don't know what the strange triangular braid means. People take it to be 1-pip flag, but there is no canonical evidence to say so. We only ever see two characters wearing it (Admiral Mark Jameson and Admiral Greg Quinn, and the latter appeared to be quite a high-up member of Starfleet Command!). If they are 1-pin flag officers, then they are the only two ever seen in the TNG era. No officer we saw ever wore the 1-pin grade in the 'boxed' insignia system used for flag ranks from TNG Season 2 onwards (rather odd, as there were situations where 1-pin flag officers would have fitted...such as Pressman in 'The Pegasus' or Janeway in 'Nemesis'). In ENT, though, we saw several 1-pins in the background or as assistants to Admiral Forrest. There rank there, though, was identified as Commodore in Season 2's 'First Flight'.
Indeed. It would be extremely confusing for Starfleet to continue to operate two different rank braid schemes side by side, especially if the rank of Captain in the former were almost impossible to distinguish from the rank of Commander in the latter. So it would be beneficial to think that the two schemes were not different, and indeed both Ramart and Kirk held the rank of Commander while wearing the two solid braid.
Timo Saloniemi
The problem with the Commodore with the USN was that it was both a position and a rank. The title of commodore is given to a non-flag officer who commands a naval squadron. DESRONs and SUBRONs are usually commanded by an O-6 Captain with the individual ship commanding officers being O-5 commanders. The O-7 flag rank often got confused with the position.
Here's a thought. One of the reasons commodore was abandoned by the U.S. Navy in the 19th century had to do with the fact that other world navies didn't use the rank, or if they did, it was more equivalent to the position of a senior captain in charge of a small fleet of ships. Those navies that didn't use commodore didn't see that rank as equivalent to admiral ranks, or flag officers, causing some strife.
Also, in the other branches of the U.S. military at the time, Army and Marines, generals also didn't respect commodores because of the idea that they weren't admirals.
So perhaps when Starfleet encountered other races, they had similar rank prejudices -- not seeing commodores as flag or general officers, but mere senior captains. Hence, in the interest of interstellar relations and prestige, commodore was retired, perhaps only retained as a title or temporary appoinment for senior captains who didn't want to advance to the admiralty.
Just a thought.
Red Ranger
Also, in the other branches of the U.S. military at the time, Army and Marines, generals also didn't respect commodores because of the idea that they weren't admirals.
So perhaps when Starfleet encountered other races, they had similar rank prejudices -- not seeing commodores as flag or general officers, but mere senior captains. Hence, in the interest of interstellar relations and prestige, commodore was retired, perhaps only retained as a title or temporary appoinment for senior captains who didn't want to advance to the admiralty.
Just a thought.
Red Ranger
hellsgate
Commodore
In my own fics, I'd NEVER, EVER use anything besides just plain "Admiral". Commodore & all those other ridiculous ranks just make my head spin. Besides, in Trek, you're not supposed to do anything that would intentionally create divisive problems in the flow of a starbase, shipyard or vessel's chain of command.
I for one am sick of being a commodore. I've been a damn commodore next to forever, and I would rather have been an admiral all that time.
And I can't understand why Timo is a vice admiral and he joined a year after me. He's got pull, that's what it is. This board must prefer Finns.
I don't get any respect. No respect at all.
And I can't understand why Timo is a vice admiral and he joined a year after me. He's got pull, that's what it is. This board must prefer Finns.
I don't get any respect. No respect at all.
Yule Gibbons said:
I for one am sick of being a commodore. I've been a damn commodore next to forever, and I would rather have been an admiral all that time.
And I can't understand why Timo is a vice admiral and he joined a year after me. He's got pull, that's what it is. This board must prefer Finns.
I don't get any respect. No respect at all.
You should spam more. Come by the lounges.
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