• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

The Rank of Commodore?

Timo said:
ENT had broad silver braid with colored stripes in between to create much the same effect (Vice Admiral Forrest had two narrow sections separated from the broad one by these color bands, analogous to the cuffs of Fitzpatrick).

On the later modified ENT uniforms, as seen in 'These Are The Voyages...', the flag officer rank stripes changed again to be identical to the TOS ones, only silver in colour instead of gold. Many Coto sported the same number as Fitzpatrick did.

Also, there were some stripes used on one type of TNG flag uniform: the ones seen in Seasons 3, 4 and 5, though as we only saw identifiable Vice Admirals wearing them, it's unclear as to what the thin stripes mean, if anything...
 
If the rank of Commodore were still in use in the 24th century, what would the rank insignia look like?
I liked TOS and the insignia seen in Star Trek IV.

JDW
 
I've always assumed it would be a boxed single pip, if rear admiral is two, vice is three, and full admiral is four. Fleet admiral would be five.
 
Can someone post a large picture of the rank insignia for TOS Commodore? Every picture that I've found so far is to small to let me see what is between the upper & lower braid. THANKS!

JDW
 
TOS Commodore Stripes, from Memory Alpha.org.

If you watch the episodes, though, you'll see that they're not 100% consistent with the Commodore stripes. They have the same layout, but the material they are made from (and thus their colour) varies slightly from season to season (Commodore Stocker's in Season 3 looked like they were made out of shiney cardboard!).
 
Am I correct when I say there is no 3rd braid between the upper & lower braid in the rank insignia, just a gold field?

JDW
 
^ That's affirmative, at least with what's seen in that link by mada101.

That also equates to what an RDML (Rear Admiral, Lower Half) has on his/her sleeves in RL, at least in the USCG.

Cheers,
-CM-
 
[Fleet Cptain] would be three solid braids. Without Fleet Captain it makes no sense why Commodore doesn't use that scheme.

Well, it does make sense numerically. If you start with zero and go up by half steps, the sixth rank ends up as 2.5. It would be very practical for an organization like Starfleet, presuambly incorporating many different organizations and traditions, to use a simple progression. The USN and RN systems aren't really inuituve, with no half step between between Lt and LCdr in the RN and between Cdr and Capt in both services.

The flag ranks don't appear to follow as simple a progression, but they are fancier and follow naval tradition.

Judging by RAdm Kirk's insignia, it appears that the commodore sleeve rank was changed by the TMP period to three regular stripes grouped together to form the broad band:

tmp_cdres_1.png


This could be interpreted as leaving no room for fleet captain, which -- if it's a real rank -- is also generally thought to use three full stripes, but with normal separation. It also raises the question of what shoulder marks are used. Here are a couple of conjectural possibilities:

tmp_cdres_2.png


tmp_cdres_3.png


tmp_cdres_4.png


I don't like that last one, myself, just speculating!

--Justin
 
Yeah, I think the RA rank looks better with the scheme I described - having the center stripe over the commodore mesh. I wish I had a scan of this old conjectural list, which was black and white but still looked nice. Personally I was never fond of the shoulder epaulets.
 
Who came up with the rank insignia and ranks seen in TOS?
This includes the first episode with Jeff Hunter as Captain Pike.

JDW
 
The other posabilty is that the Fleet Capatin is the same as the old British rank of Post Capatin where as Normal Capatin was only so as long as he had comand of a ship and Post Capatin was always a Captin. Anyway I've always found that Star Trek does a very poor job with rank ie all of the sinour staff on the Ent-D should have been LT. Cmd. (of couse Riker,Picard and Crusher would have the same rank and Picard would have a Chief of the Boat [or Coxswain under the Canadain system] with the rank of Master Chief PO)and enlisted are super messed (O'Brien often comes across as a very lower Commission officer insteed of a highly rank NCO)
 
JDW said:
Who came up with the rank insignia and ranks seen in TOS?
This includes the first episode with Jeff Hunter as Captain Pike.

JDW

The ranks used in 'The Cage' were very, very loose. There were only 4 different types of rank insignia visible:

No stripe: General crew
1 stripe with holes in: 'Chief'
1 stripe: 'Lieutenant'
2 stripes: 'Captain'
 
Actually, even the skipper had just one stripe in "The Cage"; the two-stripe version was introduced in the second pilot, "Where No Man Has Gone Before". (Also, the second pilot didn't feature any characters with the "holy" stripe.)

In the second pilot, we could argue that the ranks were not "loose" at all: quite possibly everybody with a single braid did hold the rank of Lieutenant, and Kirk was the only one with the rank of Captain (or possibly Commander, which would make the pilot scheme identical with the regular TOS scheme with minimal fuss). The rank of Lieutenant Commander is mentioned in the episode, too, but only in Kirk's log entry; it need not correlate with any of the rank braids seen on the characters.

Theoretically, we could do the same with the first pilot, and claim that it, too, obeyed the TOS system. The "holy chief" there might hold the rank of Lieutenant (jg), which is denoted by a "broken" braid in TOS. Or then he might be wearing a special NCO or Warrant Officer braid that falls into disfavor in TOS, or is only worn by people who stay off camera in TOS, or something.

Admittedly, though, it would be a bit odd for Captain Pike to hold the relatively low rank of Lieutenant. :eek: But he does command a crew less than half that of Kirk!

Timo Saloniemi
 
I just ignore the pilot insignia entirely, because it's clear they hadn't thought about solidifying the rank scheme at that point.
 
Unwrapped said:
I just ignore the pilot insignia entirely, because it's clear they hadn't thought about solidifying the rank scheme at that point.

I actually like that rank system in "The Cage". A single stripe for all officers (presumably). It was definitely a different approach to looking at ranks and how different Starfleet itself was at the time...
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top