Hmm. Since the Talosians were able to change his perception of her appearance from deformed to beautiful (and even green), I would think that if Pike was attracted to men they would have had him perceive her as a man.
The Pro-Diversity in Trek Lit thread
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Hmm. Since the Talosians were able to change his perception of her appearance from deformed to beautiful (and even green), I would think that if Pike was attracted to men they would have had him perceive her as a man.
^Like I said, they didn't just kidnap him, they presented Vina to him in situations designed to make him develop romantic feelings for her. They didn't just want to create in-vitro embryos or something; they wanted to establish a family unit, a mother and father who would be able to raise children to adulthood.
I applaud the current authors of Trek lit for giving us a much more diverse look at humanity than the shows usually did.
It's sad to think that it wouldn't violate one bit of canon if you wrote an episode or a novel when you revealed that there were no gay people because they were "cured" or some form of genetic engineering ensured that no more people were born gay.
Gene Roddenberry may have strove to be inclusive and open minded but in a number of cases he fell short, sometimes embarrassingly so. Even Data was shown to be straight (Yar & Jenna D'Sora. The Borg Queen was a special case). As we saw with Lal, gender in androids is assigned, not an intrinsic part of their being.
Let's have more diversity!
It's sad to think that it wouldn't violate one bit of canon if you wrote an episode or a novel when you revealed that there were no gay people because they were "cured" or some form of genetic engineering ensured that no more people were born gay.
Gene Roddenberry may have strove to be inclusive and open minded but in a number of cases he fell short, sometimes embarrassingly so. Even Data was shown to be straight (Yar & Jenna D'Sora. The Borg Queen was a special case). As we saw with Lal, gender in androids is assigned, not an intrinsic part of their being.
Let's have more diversity!
I mean, if you're in a revisionist mood, Pike could be bisexual, too, and the Talosians would only be using images of women to tempt him because of their Human breeding project.
ETA:
I tend to assume that the Talosians' goal is to determine whether or not a Human can be tempted with sex and subdued, and that from there they hope to capture more Humans for their creepy breeding project.
Yeah, Amen to that. Archie Comics reached the finish line of establishing a gay character into its mythos before Star Trek.
Let me just say that one more time:
Star Trek is now less progressive than Archie Comics.
(Novels excluded, natch. I'm talking about what's canon in both.)
I'm not sure that's true. Didn't Archie just introduce a homosexual character last year? The first regular homosexual character I remember in Trek was Keru back at the beginning of Titan.
Addition: Just remembered that back in the beginning of New Frontier there was Burgoyne who is a hermapherdite and had relationships with both men and women. NF has had actual homosexual relationships other than that such as one between Si Cwan's sister and the helmswoman.
Addition: Just remembered that back in the beginning of New Frontier there was Burgoyne who is a hermapherdite and had relationships with both men and women. NF has had actual homosexual relationships other than that such as one between Si Cwan's sister and the helmswoman.
Fer excluded the novels. He was just talking the about the actual movies and tv episodes.
Since so Trek hasn't been on tv or film in nearly a decade (and the new films being TOS characters), the comparsion makes no sense. Plus, since this is the trek lit board, I think we can count the books in this thread.
Does "Archie" really have all that much of a definable canon? It has had sci-fi stories, spy-stories and all sorts of out there stuff that doesn't really fit into the "Teens From Riverdale" set-up (Not to mention the fact that they've all been in high school for over 50 years).
Anyway, if we were just talking about comics, Marvel's Trek comics in the 90's introduced gay character Yoshi Mishima in its Starfleet Academy comic and the gay couple of Krissten Richtor and Etana Kol in their DS9 series.
I disagree, because Trek was still on the air when shows like Babylon 5 and Buffy the Vampire Slayer were introducing LGBT characters. Next Gen had a script where they would have introduced a gay character in season one, and not only did they opt not to film it, they never stepped up to the plate to introduce any LGBT humans in the 18 years that followed.
Which I did acknowledge in my post, and I'm very grateful for those characters. And sure, they count in Star Trek media.
But I'm talking about canon, and we all know the TrekLit books are not and never will be canon. If you're not a TrekLit fan, you don't know anything about these characters. There are probably many Trek fans who don't even know they exist.
Kevin Keller, on the other hand, is in the forefront of the current Archie Comics and the publishers have said he's here to stay. He is in the official Archie canon. The LGBT characters in the Trek books aren't, and never will be.
So officially and canonically, Star Trek is still not as progressive as Archie Comics.
Sure. The "Teens From Riverdale" set-up is the official Archie Universe. And the other side tales you mentioned (and most notably, the current Life with Archie: The Married Life comic) would be an example of non-canonical Archie stories, since they're "What If?" stories. For example, each issue of Life with Archie features two stories, one that follows what would happen if Archie had married Veronica, and one on what if he'd married Betty. In fact, they recently did an issue where in the future Kevin Keller marries Clay Walker; so Kevin Keller would be canon, but Clay Walker wouldn't be.
See my previous reply to MatthiasRussell. The Star Trek comics aren't canonical to Star Trek. So sure, I'll definitely give Star Trek comics props for beating Archie Comics to having a gay character in comics, but Archie still beat Star Trek to having a gay character in their official character line-up.
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Who were then absorbed into Trek Lit through the DS9 Relaunch.
Actually, they set it up where Archie went for a walk in the woods and the path forked. You get to see what happens when he decided to go left or right.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archie_Marries_Veronica/Archie_Marries_Betty
The original story
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_with_Archie#The_Married_Life
The continuing story
Back on topic, Roddenberry had a chance to have gay characters back in the first season of TNG. David Gerrold ended up leaving the show in large part to how he and his story were treated after being told that "it was time". D.C. Fontana left as well. For all the talk of how advanced humanity had become the characters were still referred to as "Ensign Tutti-Fruitti". When I read about this from both sides I realized how much of Roddenberry's vision was simply smoke and mirrors. I'm glad that other people have tried to live up to the vision that Gene claimed to have but that he didn't really believe in.
BYW, the first recurring gay character on American TV was on the short lived sitcom The Corner Bar in 1972. Peter Panama was played by Trek alum Vincent Schiavelli.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Corner_Bar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archie_Marries_Veronica/Archie_Marries_Betty
The original story
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_with_Archie#The_Married_Life
The continuing story
Back on topic, Roddenberry had a chance to have gay characters back in the first season of TNG. David Gerrold ended up leaving the show in large part to how he and his story were treated after being told that "it was time". D.C. Fontana left as well. For all the talk of how advanced humanity had become the characters were still referred to as "Ensign Tutti-Fruitti". When I read about this from both sides I realized how much of Roddenberry's vision was simply smoke and mirrors. I'm glad that other people have tried to live up to the vision that Gene claimed to have but that he didn't really believe in.
BYW, the first recurring gay character on American TV was on the short lived sitcom The Corner Bar in 1972. Peter Panama was played by Trek alum Vincent Schiavelli.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Corner_Bar
From what I understand, Kevin Keller is one of the most popular characters in the Archie line. He just got married in a flash-foreward issue. So, not only is Archie more inclusive and diverse that Trek is at this point (canon, not including lit) but they're pulling even further ahead.
Well, for what it's worth, I gather that the main source of resistance to LGBT inclusion in Trek was Rick Berman, and he no longer has any involvement with the franchise. Maybe future movies will be more inclusive (Abrams has said he's open to the idea and is "shocked" that Star Trek has never included a canonical gay or lesbian character), or maybe the next Trek TV series will include a gay/lesbian/bi regular. (Considering that two of the top people campaigning to make the next Trek series are Bryan Singer and Bryan Fuller, that might well happen.)
I'm trying to remember if we've seen LGBT characters in J.J. Abrams's TV series or films to date. I think one of the supporting cast members in Undercovers (someone at the protagonists' catering business, maybe the lead chef) was gay, and there was a recurring thread about catering a wedding that happened to be same-sex. A web search tells me that one of the regulars on Felicity was gay and got married during the series, and another regular had a gay brother who appeared twice. Apparently there was only one recurring gay character in Lost. I can't recall any major LGBT characters from Fringe, Person of Interest, or Alcatraz.
I'm trying to remember if we've seen LGBT characters in J.J. Abrams's TV series or films to date. I think one of the supporting cast members in Undercovers (someone at the protagonists' catering business, maybe the lead chef) was gay, and there was a recurring thread about catering a wedding that happened to be same-sex. A web search tells me that one of the regulars on Felicity was gay and got married during the series, and another regular had a gay brother who appeared twice. Apparently there was only one recurring gay character in Lost. I can't recall any major LGBT characters from Fringe, Person of Interest, or Alcatraz.
i don't think there were any LGBs in Alias either.
I don't have anything to add about GLBT characters right now, but going back to the original inspiration for this thread...
People have been pushing for some sort of tie-in featuring the adventures of Captain Robau aboard the USS Kelvin, which I fully support because I loved that the first captain we see onscreen in the Abramsverse is played by a Pakistani-American. That casting goes right to the heart of the diversity we're celebrating as part of the Star Trek franchise, taking "enemies" and showing them as heroes in an inclusive future.
He is the Chekov of our time.
People have been pushing for some sort of tie-in featuring the adventures of Captain Robau aboard the USS Kelvin, which I fully support because I loved that the first captain we see onscreen in the Abramsverse is played by a Pakistani-American. That casting goes right to the heart of the diversity we're celebrating as part of the Star Trek franchise, taking "enemies" and showing them as heroes in an inclusive future.
He is the Chekov of our time.
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